Schiit Jotunheim has no grounding / hum issues.

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Man, grabbing the pop-corn. Linky?
     
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  2. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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    His agenda is to get attention. He needs to be worshiped. Should change his board name to the Audio Narcissist!
     
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  3. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    He needs us to believe that ...

    B8F00D48-58F8-4B4D-95C1-11602CEC38ED.jpeg
     
  4. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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  5. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Man, my head hurt reading a bit of that. Best to go back and stay away from ASR. It's painful.
     
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  6. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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  7. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    I believe Prism uses the Cirrus CS4398, which has been around forever in dac years.
    For what it's worth, I have the Lyra1 and sold the RME.
    Prism also makes the dScope, which is arguably more well known than their recording interfaces. I'd wager a few shekels that those guys are reasonably skilled at their craft.
     
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  8. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Welp, it seems the Amir does not like the "spray of frequencies". This is a multi-bit DAC. It is possible that the "spray of frequencies" is due to the cross over distortion that was addressed in later FW releases. But I dunno.

    I don't think one can write off a DAC that measures 0.00308% THD+N in the audio range as Amir does. Specially a multibit one. That is not shit.

    Did he actually heard the device in question?

    At least there are no more Amir-bits on that write up.
     
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  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Any reason to ditch the RME in favor of the Lyra 1?

    And yup. RME seem to be AKM dudes. Prism seem to be CS dudes. It's clear these guys know their shitz.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
  10. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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    From what I read he does not listen much, or at all. I believe he has claimed to have trained ears, but I guess he does not want to use them. Saving them for his topping equipment reviews. He just made a comment that headphones do not handle enough power. He is probably working on is own phone smoking power test. Sign of severe hearing loss???
     
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  11. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    That's funny!. If I am discredited does that automatically discredit Amir by proxy given he has claimed equivalency between his and my measurements in an attempt to demonstrate his competency through a sort of, maybe they look similar, which they weren't really.
     
  12. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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    He is just a toxic individual. No thinking person takes him seriously. He has a small band of folowers that worship his every word, but that's about it.

    Earlier you mentioned life is too short.I read what you went through and have some experence along similar lines. Glad to hear you are doing well, and yes there are much more important things in life than his foolish stuff.

    Best regards
    Bob
     
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  13. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    From a functional standpoint, I needed something with mic inputs (though it's not like I don't have standalone mic preamps), and the Lyra preamps sound very nice. I don't really use them for much more than brief radio snippets, but even in a crappy nontreated room (ie my bedroom) with an SM58 I could immediately tell it was better than the Focusrite I was using. I will note however that I've been having a lot of trouble with my new laptop working with the Lyra, but that's more a [email protected]&! Windows issue.

    In terms of sound, if I'm to use poofy terminology then the RME is cooler while the Prism is airier. Both sound north of "neutral". Objectively, I think the RME is cleaner by a whiff*. The sound is a bit hard at first, but then as my ears adjust it settles into clarity. With the Prism, the first few moments are soft and enticing, but then after a while it starts to feel hazy. Given that my listening habits are very spastic though as I'm constantly getting up and moving around, the Lyra suits my situation more.
    *I feel like the digital volume control is cleaner** on the Prism though, but has chunkier steps
    **it's not that the RME is dirtier when you mess with volume... hard to explain, but in testing I thought it sounded better feeding full output into a passive preamp, while the Prism exhibited similar but less so; the actual differences were tiny and into "gut feeling" territory
     
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  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Oh Shit! Actual impressions!

    Amir needs more of this. Oh. I forgot. "Audio Science Review". Forgot it was all about "Science".
     
  15. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Last year I had a whole stack of fancy dacs lined up. There was the Prism Lyra and Callia, RME ADI-2 Pro, Schiit Yggdrasil, Forssell MDAC-2... it was an interesting time going back and forth.
     
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  16. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    It seems I'm getting used to breaking my rule about responding to negative PR, but I think it's worth chiming in here.

    First, all measurements and experiences are valid. We look seriously at every critical measurement and review, and, if necessary, make changes to rectify the problem. In the case of the Jotunheim, we checked current stock and found no grounding problems--and, in addition, we went ahead and put a 100% grounding test into production, just in case. The test covers Jotunheim, Lyr 3, and some upcoming products that will be using the same Penn Engineering pin-and-keyhole-slot top mounting system.

    Second, I understand that our approaches aren't for everyone. I know that Ultrabike considers us a bit touched in the head for our obsession with multibit DAC approaches and Mike's wacky math. And I get it. In terms of conventional measurements, the best-implemented multibit DAC will probably never equal a well-implemented delta-sigma design. Our own published specs reflect this fact—when products are available in both multibit and delta-sigma variations, delta-sigma measures better. So, if conventional measurements are your metric, you can strike multibit off your list.

    But...and here's the real but...based on measurements, should we give up on multibit entirely?

    That's a serious question. Should we stop development of multibit, because multibit DACs don't measure as well on conventional measurements? Should we focus on squeezing every bit of measured performance out of, say, the new AK4493 or the older, but higher-performance and more-expensive AK4497?

    Furthermore, should everyone stop development of multibit technology in all forms, whether it's chip-based or discrete, because none of those approaches has delivered higher performance than delta-sigma, when measured with the yardstick of THD and linearity?

    A step further, should everyone stop working on any high-end DAC approach other than using the top chipsets from the top delta-sigma DAC providers like AKM, TI, Analog Devices, ESS, and Cirrus? Because, after all, they have hundreds of engineers working on those products, how can you hope to compete?

    Another step, should standalone DACs be abandoned entirely, since the conventional measurements of most phones are so good these days, and there's not a lot of room to improve on them?

    Serious questions. What say you?
     
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  17. Wilson

    Wilson Socially Anxious Volleyball

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    @schiit , I can't answer those questions, but I know my headphones sound better with your stuff than without. I trust your company and products.

    EDIT: Amir is a troll.
    EDIT: Valhalla 2 + Modi Multibit
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
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  18. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Well @schiit, my Jotunheim and Modi Multibit were day one buys and they both sound fantastic still. I don't care how my Modi Multibit measures (or if there's a glitch at -70 that I can't hear) because I know it sounds better than my old Modi 2, even though it "measures worse". As for my Jotunheim, no hum whatsoever.

    I don't think measurements tell the whole story. I think they are good for catching major problems and sanity checks but that's about it.

    You and Mike keep making DACs that sounds great and let the "scientists" worry about the measurement epeening.
     
  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Oh stop it Jason.

    You are not competing with AK's Mom, Tits and Instruments, Anal Devices, ZZZ, and Cirrhosis Logic. You guys offer end-user solutions with really nice AK M&Ms on them just the same.

    And your Anal Devices based multi-bit is as awesome sauce as it gets.

    Keep delivering the Wacky Mike and Jason's habanero/ghost chilly beans burrito.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
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  20. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Oh hell, now I need a new keyboard, because one is swimming in Ojai Valley Brewing Chaparral (typing this on the other computer.)

    But you know what I mean. Multibit is off the beaten path. Mike makes strange math claims. 16 bit seems very, very weird in a world of "32 bit" DACs...you know, like what's next? A Schiit cassette deck? (Hint: no.) To keep prices low, we sometimes end up with non-upgradable DACs that have running changes based on what we learn as we go along. We're not perfect. Sometimes we just plain screw up.

    But, if you'll tolerate it, we'll keep playing with multibit...and improving the delta-sigma stuff, too...and, hopefully, improving in general.

    And now, back to re-laying-out the @&(&$^%! grounding on an amp where grounding is a royal pain in the rear end, because the standing current is like 10X that of Vidar. Don't get excited, it ain't a product yet, and it won't be until the power supply crud is down below -100dBV. At least. AAAARRGGGHHHHHHH.
     
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