The All Purpose Advice Thread - Part 2

I say go for it. Unsure where to put it either, but they’re useful data points.

 

tl;dr: What headphones sound the most like ATC speakers? More background/thoughts below, but is the HD800S the closest?

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Background

As some of you know, I've been demoing speakers off-and-on for years just to compare to my Magnepan 1.6QR and see if I found anything that suited my fancy and budget (see here if interested). So far, I think the top of that list are the ATC SCM40v2. What I loved about them was the clarity/transparency, lack of fatigue at higher volumes (presumably due to the lack of metal cone/tweeter materials and massively overbuilt drivers reducing distortion), tight/accurate bass. I listen to a lot of pop punk, rock, and similar stuff, and much of it is not super well recorded or mixed. I loved how that music sounded on the ATCs, but also enjoyed the few classical pieces I demoed.

I've used the Focal Utopia headphones for around seven years now and am still struggling to find a proper pairing for that without completely rejiggering my speaker system that shares the same room. I've made progress with the amp front there recently with the ECP T4 and now the Nitsch DSHA-3FN, but it's still fatiguing at anything much over 70 dB measured by my iPhone NIOSH app. I'm fine with that for my long-term hearing, but longer listening sessions aren't really possible on the Utopia like they are on the Maggies. So recently I've toyed with the idea of either replacing the Utopia with something that sounds more like the Maggies (likely a planar design), and was thinking this week about what headphones would sound the most like ATC speakers in case I end up replacing the Maggies with ATC speakers instead of Focal speakers.

Candidates

In thinking of my impressions and those I've read elsewhere on the forum from folks like @Armaegis, @rlow, @purr1n, and @Hrodulf, it seems like ATC speakers pretty consistently have the following qualities:

• tight, accurate, well-damped (or overdamped) bass;
• great bass extension, but not a ton of midbass punch;
• transparency across the board, but especially in the midrange;
• low distortion;
• accurate and clean sound;
• maybe a bit dry;
• slight midrange dip and/or elevated treble; and
• not annoying metal timbre/tonality because they use soft-dome tweeters and paper mids/woofers.

In thinking of the headphones I've heard over the years, the one that keeps coming to mind that closest matches the above ATC descriptors is the Sennheiser HD800S. Seems to tick all the boxes, except for maybe low distortion in the bass. I used to own the HD800SDR and sold them to fund the Utopia purchase in 2016. I loved how light they are and how they have bigger earcups which work very well with my larger ears. The earcups fit my ears better than the HD600/650. Utopia earpad size is fine.

I've also spent time many years ago with stuff like the AKG K7XX, Sony MDR-7506 and similar, etc. The Sonys hurt my ears, both due to their sound and the headphones' physical design. AKG 700 series also could work, but think the general consensus was that the big boy Sennheisers were better overall than AKG. Potentially the Sennheiser HD600 (which I own) or HD6XX but those have a midrange peak instead of a flat or recessed midrange like the ATCs seem to. Otherwise seem pretty close. Or would the answer be something like the Susvara?

Any other thoughts?

 

I'd suggest possibly an ETA Genesis G. on the used market or ETA O2 as options. I believe they have something in the works that you might want to keep an eye out for too.

 

I’ve only owned <10 headphones so far in my hp journey, but I could get behind the HD800S and the HD600 being similar to the ATCs, at least the SCM11 and SCM19, which are the ones I owned long enough to remember. I only heard the SCM40 for briefly at a dealer, but my impressions were fairly similar to the others, but with slightly better mids and more bass extension/kick.

 

I’d think you should consider Raal. Clear/wide/airy/sharp/resolving is kind of my sweet spot, and I’ve almost purchased a pair and a Jot-R many times based on impressions. Bass would be the biggest issue, but 800 would do you no favors there. Raal is supposed to have a more balanced midrange than 800. CA-1A I’d supposed to do bass better than Sr-1B. With the adapter boxes now reportedly making it easier to pair with other amps that aren’t just huge mono blocks, a used pair could be worth an audition. You can find the old thread Marv made for more impressions pretty easily.

 

I just had the ZMF Caldera loaner and I feel like it checks all of these boxes except the dry part. It has a slightly sweet slightly wet tonality, but it still sounds crisp. The midrange has a slight dip, the treble definitely isn't elevated, though. But it was an eminently listenable headphone. I think I could listen to it forever without fatigue.

 

I too really like the ATC sound signature (I'll probably get the SCM40/50/100 one of these days), and currently in my headphone stable I have: OG HE-6 (modded), Audio Zenith PMx2, JAR660, and ETA Mini S. I would say the first three come close to matching the ATC sound.

I might be convinced to part with my PMx2 if there were any interest. It comes closest, misses out on a teensy bit of detail but on the flipside isn't a power hog and plays nice with most amps or barely needs one..

 

Any studio speaker with a tonal response of 95% of headphones out there would be laughed out of the room.

ATC has a house sound but they are fairly neutral. The house sound comes from things other than the tonal response.

 

What ATCs? the upper line has a different timbre than the lower ones. The cheaper 2 way ATC SCM11/12 and SCM25 are warm, the atc scm20 and scm50 are brutal monitors, the bigger ones are pretty much hifi speakers you sit further back from and they have to push the same mid dome and tweeter louder to reach your listening position at the same volume where the drivers blend.

In short, no pair of headphones will sound anything like them. If you want a pair of headphones like them, shell out for ATC SCM20ASL, tank stands, and set them up correctly in your room at your desk.

tight bass? yes
great bass extension? depends on the room and model.
transparency? yes. even more so for the SL line.
low distortion? all of them.
accurate? all of them in appropriate rooms
dry? there are no stupid cab resonances but the cheaper ones are warm.
midrange dip? unless you've been listening to NS10s or HD600s, there is none.
timbre is proper.

 

Thanks for the input. I’ve only heard the SCM40v2, and loved them. That model doesn’t have the SL drivers, but does have the dome midrange. One of the only speakers I’ve tried that had midrange transparency I could live with after using the Maggies for so long. Also loved the bass presentation with the sealed cabinet after demoing so many ported speakers.

I may end up getting a pair for my home office as well, but occasionally use headphones at night in the living room system.

 

A friend/acquaintance from a mics group I recently joined is perhaps starting to shrug their DAC agnosticism off and is wondering about options that are "a pure 4-channel DAC with with balanced TRS (or XLR) outputs", similar to "a [MOTU] M4 where 1-2 and 3-4 are their own separate line outs". I know jack diddly about gear of this type so am asking here, hah.

They're amenable to "just buying another M4", which translates to "I'd prefer to spend less than USD 300 on a DAC", but are willing to go up to USD 500 if quality improves drastically.

Associated gear are a Sennheiser HD600 and a Massdrop THX789, no clue what their music preferences are yet. They're planning to run the DAC into a mixer before the headamp but are maybe willing to bypass the mixer if they find that it'll sound better that way. I did mention the THX maybe not being the best thing for the HD600, but they're sticking with it.

 

I expect that to be true. OTOH, having a few consistent voices describing their impressions allows one to triangulate fairly easily.

By that I mean, since I own DT770 and an ETA Mini-C, descriptions of those headphones by an author would allow me to assess what they say about other headphones to a degree. Imperfect, I know, yet useful.

Thanks so much to everyone for the positivity on this request!

 

I was wondering. Is the comfort level similar between the Utopia and the Clear?

Spoiler

Asking bc I have the OG Clears, and while I like them, sometimes I develop a hot spot on top of my head. I tried using the ZMF crescent snap pad which helped but ended up taking up a bit too much space even with the yokes fully extended. I’ve always wanted to check out the Utopias but don’t want to bother if I know I’d have the same fit/comfort issues as the Clears

 

I just checked the specs and the Utopia weigh an extra 40g, fwiw. I've owned both, but not at the same time, and didn't notice any difference in comfort beyond the weight, which didn't bother me. The headband felt the same, from what I remember.

 

For the four channels, are 1-2 and 3-4 the same output going to different devices, or are they different outputs?

If the former, why not just go with a splitter?
If the latter, is it a single input to create multiple outputs (like usb?) or is it multiple different inputs being routed through the device's own digital mixer?

Also... isn't the M4 already a 4-channel output device? You could always bump up to the Ultralite.

 

Right, my initial recommendation was that they could look into getting a different amp for their Senns since I don't think the THX789 seems like it'd be particularly flattering. Feels like that'd make for a less marginal difference overall, but I've been insufferably "discrete chain better" so maybe that rubbed off a bit; someone else there went from "dedicated headphone amps are snake oil!" to really liking their HD6xx out of a Magni+ that I suggested, so that's fun.

I'm more sleep deprived than usual lately but going over their messages it seems they effectively want a DAC that can output a single signal to two separate devices balanced.

Their current thing is a Tascam Model 12 > THX789 > HD600, but they're planning to go to (Insert DAC -here) > mixer (TBA?) > [Yamaha HS8 monitors] and [THX789 > HD600]. I did point out slapping a mixer between DAC and amp could be suboptimal, they're planning to test differences iirc.

Reading back on the messages I dunno where the M4 currently is in their setup. Might have a separate chain altogether for recording stuff, ergo "I could always get another M4". Gonna try and clear that up.


EDIT: Following up, the Motu M4 is at a secondary PC being used as an ADC-cum-DAC, but primarily the former. They're just now looking into a good playback-oriented DAC for the HS8 and THX789>HD600 chains.

 

Similar. The Ute has leather on the band.

Maybe try a different headband pad on the Clear before taking a jump on a pricey purchase.

 

You really don't need a 4-channel dac for that. A splitter will work just fine, or a dac that has both fixed and variable outputs.
Do you have any dacs that you can lend your friend?

The Tascam is already a dac/daw/mixer combo. It wouldn't make sense to feed the new dac into the Tascam as that will just run it through the internal ADC/DAC chain. Presumably the dac will feed the amp and Tascam separately.

 

I'm down to just the Modi 3+ for now since I'm budgeting tightly for assorted reasons. Also, this is more an online friend than an IRL one so shipping costs are going to be prohibitive, not to mention I'd be left without a discrete DAC for a bit.

Tempted to just recommend a Zen DAC V2 since I think it plays very nicely with the HD600s, and maybe the built-in headamp could flatter the Senns more than the THX789 (shrug). Also likely to be a more engaging sound signature that they may find themselves liking; they're very much a measurements-oriented sort, enough so that they pay fairly close attention to preamp EIN in the same way folk on ASR might SINAD, so I feel like a fun-fi approach could be worth exposing them to.