The All Purpose Advice Thread

After reading into Tyll's review on the 660S I think I'll pass on it. Sounds like it doesn't really accomplish anything better - in fact it's potentially worse - and just costs more.

I'm definitely getting the HD600 - it seems to be the tried and true and everyone should have one.

I'm going to buy them brand new from Amazon.

My question on which stack to get stands though. Schiit vs JDS Labs there.

Magni 3 + Modi 2 Uber
or
Objective 2 + OL DAC.

Sorry to ask so much and be high-maintenance. Been a long time since I've dabbled in the audio world. I was getting recommendations for the HD600 5 years ago and I guess I was just in a bit of disbelief that it's STILL the big thing. I guess once something does the job right, updates are no longer necessary.

Considering how old it is, I wonder if there's actually subtle differences in the sound of HD600s produced today versus HD600's produced 20 years ago... and I wonder which sounds better.

 

@Alexander As someone who's tried all current HD6__ variants (HD650 for far longer than the other two), I can say that the older Senns are quite excellent value, and the HD660S is a pass. Latter reco based more on anecdotal news on lack of ultimate scaleability than my own experiences; I actually liked the tonality of the HD660S more than that of a stock HD650 (store demo conditions, unfamiliar rig). Still, either 600 or 650 will serve as an excellent baseline.

As for source and amp:
Chord: Hugo 1 is not excellent (that's all I'm gonna say on it); Mojo is good but has weird EMI issues, plus there have been reports of units crapping out, I think. Love the aesthetic, but it's certainly to taste. I'd worry about the battery on these things, if this'll be for long-term desktop use.

Schiit: I'm rocking a Bifrost Multibit I got used, and this is my first piece of Schiit so I can't speak for the Modi Multibit etc., but I will say it's quite a good buy. I paid only slightly less than new SRP because I had to have the damn thing converted from 110V to 230V, but it's a good investment regardless. There's an extensive comparison of Schiit amps on here with input from far better ears, so I'll leave you to that.

Oh, the Bifrost Multibit is apparently quite similar to the Modi Multibit, only "superior" in that it's upgradeable and you won't need an Eitr cuz of the USB Gen 5 built in.

iFi: totally random recommendation, but I'm a fan of the iDSD series. The Micro silver has been a trusty companion for years, and the BL is said to be an overall refinement. Never A/Bed them so I'm keeping zip on that. Anyway, stock HD650s performed fairly well out of this, and while I preferred the Bifrost Multibit to the built-in DAC by a county mile, the latter holds its own for the most part. IIRC, purr1n loves the iDSD Nano BL and jexby has a lot of good things to say about the new xDSD (which I really wanna demo wone of these days).

DO NOT GET ANYTHING WITH MORONIC TREBLE SPIKES FOR ANIME-WATCHING. I learned this the hard way. Lots of shows seem to have pretty bad sibilance, esp on female vocals. I kid you not when I say that this is what eventually pushed me over the edge to TP-mod my Fostexes.

 

Thanks for your response, probably the most helpful so far.

If you're into DSD stuff, I've read good about the Topping D30 - what do you think of that DAC? I was thinking of possibly pairing it with an Objective 2 as they have similar dimensions, and it seems that most measurements and reviews online place it a bit better than the OL DAC - not to mention the DSD support which I'd use.

Someone knows their animu. Like I said I'm attenuated to treble, and I think part of the reason may be due to anime - anime and animated content tend to come packaged with a generally bright audio. Details in the treble are important to someone like me, but too much intensity/spikes in the treble will cause ear-piercing problems.

 

1) Magni 3 is a good amp. Modi is a totally competent DAC. The “objective” stuff I have not heard but also don’t think are known for being particularly good. Probably just fine. But you can get good (Magni) instead of fine.

2) Most of the new Senn stuff like 660 isn’t worth your time. Go with the classics. 600 or 650 (or the 6XX which is a cheaper 650)

3) The 650 “veil” was a thing on headfi five or ten years ago, we’ve moved past that. Good equipment and not trying to drive it from your Moto Razer solved that problem. (A modded 650 has no veil at all to my ears and beats a 600 every time IMO.)

4) I’m not sure how to say this without sounding like a zealot but 99.9999% of audio advice you find online is either a regurgitation of stuff they read but don’t have the experience to state themselves or just flat out wrong. Most reviews are biased due to currying favor with the vendors. SBAF is an oasis in a desert of misinformation. Any one sentence you read here from a Friend is worth more than dozens of reviews on other sites. I don’t know how to convince you that is true but that’s been my experience. Audio culture is mostly voodoo magic and nonsense and parroted rumors and lies. HF is more like a shopping mall than an enthusiast forum, except they’re not up front about the fact that vendors are acting like users and inciting unnecessary spending. I love SBAF because it is not those things.

 

Hi SBAF! I'm looking for entry-midrange phones (around €200 used), to use with my Schiit Fulla 2. What I want is:
-full-bodied midrange
-tight and punchy bass, maybe something above neutral but not bassy
-smooth treble
-good attack and instrument separation
-world peace
I will use them only at home, so portability is not an issue, same about open vs closed.
While the Senn HD6X0 seems to be the first choice, I'm afraid that the Fulla 2 won't drive them properly, resulting in not-so-great bass response. Other options I've considered are the HE-4XX, but from graphs and descriptions they appear to be too bright for my tastes, and the Fidelio X2. I've also looked into the T50rp mods, but they are hard to find here in Europe.

 

I only picked up the iDSD because someone was selling used at a decent price and I liked the idea of having an AIO. I've done some A/Bing between high-res PCM and DSD and found... no discernible difference. For that matter, I've yet to find any decent reason to go with high-res stuff unless music I like is only available in 96/24 or higher; either I don't know how to listen properly, my ears are fucked, or my gear just sucks arse. Either way, I'm perfectly happy with redbook, so I'm not one to ask about DSD. There are others on here who would beg to differ, but as this is not my area of expertise I'll bow out.

The Topping DAC is not beloved here, to put it very mildly. No personal experience, but trusted ears have spoken:
https://superbestaudiofriends.org/i...measurements-and-subjective-impressions.6270/
http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...ac-Modi Multibit-jds-el-dac-ifi-nano-bl.6313/

The pseudoscientific-approach-based bull-shilling done by Amir over at ASR just added fuel to the flames.

What @a44100Hz says is true, be careful of shilling, even on here, and know what people like; even established members don't all agree on stuff (see: RME ADI-2 DAC), and even people with not a lot of experience with gear can make Friend (see: myself).

I think what's important is that the people on SBAF are taught to listen critically, are encouraged to know and disclose their sonic preferences (and that, sorry Alexander, "true neutral" is a pipe dream), and develop a basic understanding of the ins and outs of audio gear. Oh, and measurements are important but are far from the end-all, be-all of audio. Schiit multibit stuff would suck otherwise, since they don't churn out as pretty graphs as most DS DACs.

Random aside: it is critically important to know what members like before taking their word on stuff. For example, I used Marv as a reference when I decided to pick up an X00EB last year, and while I generally agreed with his evaluation of them I ended up hating the extra bit of "air" at 11kHz that didn't seem to bother him much; the HP-3 I have now have their treble issues too, though to a lesser extent than the X00s. He also explicitly stated to pair the latter with tubes, which I did (hybrid though, still want a proper tube amp someday). Moral of the story? Listen to things as much as possible, but if you can only make decisions based off someone else's impressions, make sure you know the differences between your preferences and theirs, what you can and cannot tolerate in gear. That'll make your stay much more enjoyable.

P.S.
Yep, man of culture. Been one since I was a happy little weebling watching anime over on AXN Asia and Cartoon Network from like age 5 onwards. HD650 will be better for anime, trust me.

 

I was surprised by how good the Fulla 2 is when I had one for about a week. I used it with a HD6XX/650 and it was totally fine. You’ll be lacking some of the capabilities of higher end DACs and amps but, duh, it’s $99. The 650 is a headphone that gets better with better equipment (we call that scaling). The X2 is not. I don’t know about the HE-4XX but I doubt it scales much and I’ve never heard a planar I like as much as the 650. But YMMV.

Here’s what I had to say about the Fulla 2 a year ago: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...to-schiits-new-retail-store.4261/#post-136242

 

Sounds like staying away from the Topping is advised then?

I'd honestly like to see double-blind testing between the DACs done really. I'm digging deep into reviews and it appears to me like a lot of people that have actually bought and owned different DACs are saying they can't really discern between the Modi 2 Uber, OL DAC, or Topping D30, and say that the amplifier makes more of a difference than the DAC does.

Some of the people were even saying "Just get the one that you think looks best or the company you trust more - A lot of the time, like the Modi 2 and OL DAC, have the exact same chip anyway. They're going to do the same thing".

I'll drop Topping just due to poor business practices then I guess (spamming/shilling).

In case you're wondering what reviews I was looking it, it was ones like this one (Topping vs Schiit) and this one (Topping vs JDS). For all I know it could be social media shilling from Topping though.

I do read lots of reviews that the Objective 2 + OL DAC is insanely neutral and transparent, while the Magni + Modi stack adds some warmth. I'm thinking of maybe getting a JDS stack?

------

I think my problem is that I percieve added warmth as a "veil". I'm used to cool headphones and if you give me "warmer" ones I kinda feel like detail in the Treble is being washed out for the warmer sound. I think this is just the difference between people who actually enjoy some warmth, and those who perceive warmth as just an unwanted bias.

When driven by a good AMP/DAC, is the HD650 still a slightly warmer headphone than the HD600? Or does that go away too, and it's just a truly improved HD600?

The HD650 is the same price as the HD600 now. They both go for $300 give or take a few bucks. So if that's true about it then I may as well get the HD650 instead.

 

Someone can correct me if my memory is wrong but the purpose of the Objective stack is to *measure* really well, not strictly to sound really good. Measurements aren’t the whole story. Objectivists think they are; I am a subjectivist I suppose. Unfortunately the voodoo in audio culture is partly BECAUSE so much of the experience is subjective. (Remember also that your brain does a lot of signal processing for the senses, further complicating things.) I disparaged voodoo nonsense earlier but there is still some... not magic, but sometimes it’s hard to scientifically prove why one transducer or amp sounds better than another. This isn’t saying that you can find a $20 amp that will beat a $2000 amp if you just keep digging and hit gold. (I see this lottery based belief a lot; they are wasting their money chasing the next thing.) Quality of parts and circuit board design and all that stuff matters. But why the hell is the HD650 still the best in the biz after 15+ years? I dunno. There’s a certain amount of luck and art involved.

I can give you a simple example from the other day of why objective may not mean good. My friend is a music producer and upgraded his home studio to $5k studio monitors. I was excited to come over and try them, but when I sat down in the near field sweet spot it honestly didn’t sound very good. Very flat soundstage with no depth and any track I tried was emotionless.

I brought my Gungnir Multibit (Gungnir Multibit) DAC over to replace the Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Mk1 he was using as a DAC. It’s pro equipment for studio work, it’s meant to be transparent and objective for mixing purposes. But holy crap did it sound bad for listening purposes! As soon as I swapped in my Gungnir Multibit I was blown away by the ability of those speakers (KH310). Both of us felt like we were watching a live performance, it was eerie. Goosebumps. But switching back to the Scarlett was immediately flat and lifeless again. So “objective” components may not be a good thing for listening.

 

Telling DACs apart in double blind has been done, several times.

It takes training* though, the differences tend to be more in things like attack, transients, layering ... its not terribly hard to make a DAC that measures flat in fr, even nwavguy managed.

* This is fairly normal for double blind listening tests, if you actually do them properly.

 

HD650 with KISS mods will be damn close to neutral and pretty resolving.

AudioScienceReview is Amir's site. There's a whole thread on here about how he's basically launched a smear campaign against Schiit. Recommended reading, that. While I don't doubt some members on that board are sincere, I basically take everything there at face-value.

Or like, the complete opposite thereof.

My experience with an O2 build waaaaaaaay back makes me think people are mistaking thinness for transparency. The Element has been covered here, I believe.

Again, +1 what @a44100Hz said, measuring well needn't mean it sounds good. In my experience DACs do make a difference, a pronounced one if you know what to listen for, but an amp and transducer change will always be more easily perceived.

I used to have the same philosophy of "listening pleasure isn't important, I want studio flatness and Moar Detail!", but as you can probably tell from my signature here I've chucked that philosophy on its arse. Frankly, just go with what sounds good to you, it's a wiser investment in the long term, really. And yes, a well-amped HD650 will sound markedly less "bloated" than a poorly-amped one.

Oh, and double blind testing is a bit of a contentious topic here. The search function is your friend, but long story short there have been ABXes successfully carried out.

 

I'm getting tired of thinking about it. Might just get the Schiit stack because it looks better, sturdier, and I like their company's no-nonsense approach and sense of humor. Not to mention the Magni 3 has pretty good word in for it on IF and I trust their reviews.

I feel like I don't want to go too far down the rabbithole of audiophile voodoo and bickering over splitting hairs. It may even just be people at each other's throats over total placebo effect.

If I don't like how it sounds it's not like I can't sell it and get something else. Speaking of which - if anyone has interest in the discontinued Oppo HA-2, which is a portable AMP/DAC with a Sabre chip, let me know.

So, I guess if the HD650 really is just an improvement upon the HD600 when driven correctly...

I think I'll be getting an HD650 with a Schiit stack then.

HD650 driven by Magni 3 + Modi 2 Uber.

I do want to note that I have no understanding of headphone modding and will not be doing it. So if the HD650 requires mods to improve the sound, maybe I should just get the HD600.

 

And if you don’t believe DACs can sound different then I recommend you check this thread. http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/life-after-yggdrasil-watering-the-ash.4036/

Note that it’s possible DACs won’t sound different — to you. That doesn’t mean there is no discernible difference. It means your combination of ear geometry, brain signal processing and experience with critical listening may not be at that point. And that’s fine! It can be a lot like wine or coffee tasting. Most people do not care at all. I do not disparage them. It has taken me years to become a semi discerning ear and I still struggle describing what I hear in a way that makes sense to other people without being misleading. But even with accumulated experience some days are bad days and my body doesn’t cooperate. If I’m tired or stressed nothing sounds good.

 

By the way I forgot to mention - there's all this talk about "USB Gen 5", especially on Schiit's stuff.

What's the deal with all that? Does this effect new computers paired to brand new Schiit stacks, or just older computers and stacks? Should I buy one of these "Wyrd" or "Eitr" things along with it?

 

Not required but it’s really sublime. It’s not difficult to mod. I had never done it before and easily managed it and I’m not a DIY audio person. A lot of us here have done it successfully. It’s something you can think about for the future. Baby steps!

Simple answer: USB tends to have interference that negatively impacts audio quality. “Gen 5” USB is Schiit’s workaround for this, the Eitr can be thought of as an equivalent external variant of their Gen 5 digital decrapifier. It can definitely be noticeably better but it is not life changing. Don’t worry about that at this point, you won’t be able to tell the difference yet.

 

Thank you for the answer!
I didn't take scaling into account (because I don't plan to upgrade further), but nonetheless it's still a plus; same for the HD600, which have more high-mids and less midbass, and maybe are more suited for aggressive genres like death metal. But if the HD6xx can be easily modded, I might bite the bullet and buy them.

 

Actually, I just found out about the Massdrop Senny HD6XX. Think it's worth waiting for? Looks pretty promising, if the community can get the drop to happen again soon. I know my K7XXs were basically improved K702s. I wouldn't mind another Massdrop headphone.

But yeah, the Gen 5 USB question stands.

 

It’s not hard at all. You just need to buy some stick-on acoustic dampening material which is not expensive. Read this thread. The only thing you have to worry about is not accidentally puncturing the driver itself.

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/hd650-kiss-mod.3440/

 

Where audiophile crosses into audiophool, I leave to you. Some respectable individuals swear by cables, I call bull on DSD; some feel affixing pieces of cardboard to the internals of a DAC helps refine its sound while others say that tubes are meaningless and just serve to add (pleasurable) noise.

Stick around, read more than you post, and have fun. Keep as open a perspective as you want, and don't be afraid to speak your mind on things that you do know.

The HD6XX is a rebranded HD650. Go for it! Measurements are on this site as well and are worth perusing.

USB Gen 5, in a nutshell, makes sure your DAC doesn't sound terrible playing straight out of a USB port. Never heard the older versions, but I've no problem listening to my Bifrost out of my lappy via USB.

 

So you're saying the Gen 5 USB stuff is just silly? I mean I really had no grasp of what they were talking about with all that. I just slap my DAC into my computer's USB port and that's it - I wasn't aware there was a problem.

I think the HD6XX is just the same thing as the HD650 with a different look and cheaper because of Massdrop. Guess I'll just get whichever I can find for cheaper.