Topping DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by etane, May 6, 2020.

  1. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    You mean, it's easier to show someone who can't hear a difference that there is one than it is to show someone who won't hear a difference that there is one?

    Thing about blind testing audio... it's not objective, except in that it removes certain subjective biases from the result. Blind testing is actually the ultimate subjective: it's you, your ears, the sound, and that's all. And it is true only for that instance, not any other.

    That people don't want to use it as a tool or don't care to do the hard work, is fine. That the ultra-subjectives write it off as being ultra-objective is logically wrong. But it is like politics: where the far right meets the far left, they end up being much the same, and logic got left behind long since.

    Forget changing the world! The thing is, it is just not possible to communicate usefully with ultra-objectives, ultra-subjectives, ultra-egotists, or... amir.
     
  2. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Ah, but that's the thing, the game is rigged - you can't beat the house. It's like @Thad E Ginathom says, with these "ultras" (i.e. radical subjectivists or radical objectivists), the "ultra" trumps everything and communication becomes impossible.

    Check this out:

    https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/


    That's 8000 words and methodology about the sound of ethernet. There is truth in there, but who has the time to pick apart all the dubious methodology and half-truths used to support what is at bottom an ideology? Even if you did, would it matter - would an ultra listen to you?
     
  3. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    I agree with you that you will never change some people's minds - the ones that have bought into the ideology fully or are actively propagating it for ideological or financial reasons.

    The only place where a difference can be made is in debunking the attractively-packaged propositions that they serve to regular folks who are just looking for some guidance. Like the oversimplification of a very complex issue regarding amplifier performance to two basic measurements. This is now actively being used by objectivists and the companies that are on the bandwagon to basically say to emerging enthusiasts: "Don't trust what your lying ears and brains are telling you, we have found a way of measuring performance that is mathematical and impossible to contest. If you buy the products that we choose to measure and that we say measure well, you will be happy forever. Until we get a product that measures just a tiny bit better, at which point you will have to upgrade."

    How do you get people just to trust their own ears and not listen to anyone's mantra that is likely driven by someone's corporate agenda? That is one of the main reasons why I participate at those "other" forums - is to remind people that you should not ignore what you are hearing with your own damn ears.
     
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  4. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Pain. You let them fail and they either come to question their pigsty, or they are perfectly happy with it. Either way somebody gets to sells them something...
     
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  5. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Keep in mind most Chinese innovation is from stolen IP. Almost all of the cheap chifi is just knockoff bullshit infesting the market. It pretty much all sucks. The big state owned enterprises in PRC don't innovate. They're run by apparatchniks and just steal. Then the west lets them buy out the western companies they drove out of business instead of banning their imports.

    Until white collar crime has existential threats for the corporation and the people behind in, this will continue. I am perfectly in favor of the death penalty for major financial crimes. Corporations are people. Execute their management and major investors who condoned it. Some people deserve to die. If corporations are people, then some corporations deserve to die along with some of the people that work there. If some gangbanger kills another gangbanger or two, how much economic damage did he cause? He might get the death penatly. Steal a couple hundred million? Small slap on the wrist.

    The CCP engages in gross economic espionage like the USSR in a spy movie. Unless there are gross penalties for this and those in the West who assist them, it will continue.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Something like this is what China excels at: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...liexpress-ebay-jl-hood-1969-class-a-amp.4308/

    There are a lot of deals that can be had.

    ~$225 shipped for a timeless Class A amp design from JL Hood in 1969. This amp works great as a cheap HE-5 or low-Z planar amp. Anyone paying these current retail prices for Topping stuff is retarded. The cost of labor and parts is so cheap in China. The majority of the time, it's cheaper buying from China than in bulk from Digikey or Mouser.

    Or lack of IP laws. If you remember the RDAC, was it Airist who designed the board, or the Chinese guy who designed it. Either way, it's obvious the board house, or someone within it, sold it to Drop or Airist, or whoever. We still don't know the real story behind it. And I honestly do not think there was any ill-intent on the part of Drop - too risk from them.
     
  7. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Small scale Chinese supply chain is contaminated for many electrical parts. That's one of the reasons they have problems building bang for buck audio gear. There are even knockoff parts in mass produced things.

    There is basically no IP enforcement there and the government steals themselves. It's communism. Where do you think all of the money poured into partially state owned enterpises comes from? It's basically the USA and robbing the future generations of taxpayers but 10000x worse because it's communism with a billion people.
     
  8. RatSalad

    RatSalad Friend

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    I don't get why anyone would post over there or ever read the ASR forum. They get no clicks from me. Vote with your wallet. With the resources available elsewhere.. why play the game at all. Let them have at it.
     
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  9. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    If people think audio gear is bad, check out simple household stuff like toasters and coffee pots. I've gone through tons of toasters and coffee pots in the past few years. China crap sold at Target and Wal-mart = bad for everyone and more money in the long run. There are American toasters from the 30s that still work 90 years later.
     
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  10. RatSalad

    RatSalad Friend

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    https://geshelli.com/

    these guys are getting a lot of clicks and recommended left and right... ASR measurements link right on the product page ! To me this does them more harm then good. (not a dac but you get it)...
     
  11. bixby

    bixby Friend

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    Absolutely right.

    Even buying high priced counter appliances like Braun and Kitchen Aid have been a disaster for the last 20+ years. KA blenders that fail in a few years, Braun souped up Halogen light tech toaster that craps out. Classic design copy $80 Cuisinart toasters that fail faster than the $10 Sunbeam from 40 years ago.

    I only buy cheap ass crap now like Hamilton Beach, cuz I know damn well all of it will fail within a few years.
     
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  12. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    That's the most "look at me, I'm virgin!" audio gear I've ever seen. The ASR link doesn't help either.
     
  13. JellyRhino

    JellyRhino Acquaintance

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    Amir should probably measure toasters and coffee pots.
     
  14. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    As long as they have a power switch on the front lol.
     
  15. Pogo

    Pogo Friend

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    O for pity's sake, ragging on amir is like picking on the paste eating kid in elementary school.
    It's easy to look tall standing next to a midget, quit wasting bandwidth.
     
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  16. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Almost "Made"

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    I have used and liked Geshelli Labs stuff, they make very good products if you are after that kind of sound. They are also really nice people and have great customer service, so I wouldnt hate on them too much. They have been donating PPE to local medical professionals in need and such which is why I like supporting smaller, local businesses.

    Their Enog Pro 2 dac is pretty good, if you are after an affordable balanced DAC and like the AKM sound. I like the garage DIY look, so its a matter of taste :) It sounded pretty great with the THX 789. Only complaint for its price was the lack of USB. it doesn't measure in the top 1% though so obviously its "shit" :).

    I actually like the sound of the TI OP amp based headphone amps with some headphones as I enjoy the intense in your face kind of presentation with metal and such so I dont personally hate on them too much. If people like the way they sound more power to em. I am only irritated by people saying the OP Amp stuff is "objectively superior" to everything else because it measures better which I think is silly.

    To go back on hating on Topping for a minute, the Topping recommendation that triggers me the most in the DX3 which has no business being in anyone claiming to be a objectivists recommendation list as its got a output impedance of freaking 10. In fact several of the Topping DAC/AMPs and amps have excessively high output impedance. The A30 amp had a output impedance of THIRTY 30, freaking 30!

    One of the big parts of Nwavguy;s crusade back in the day was how important it was for amps to have low output impedance and that seems to have just been forgotten. I once got told on reddit that it was perfectly fine to have a 300 or more output impedance on their motherboard as it was no big deal and not all that noticeable with most headphones. I pointed out that the Sennheiser HD598 (a common starter headphone for people) gets a 5db hump around 100hz when connected to a high output impedance amp and was told that was not all that noticeable. HEAD STRAIGHT TO DESK.
     
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  18. Vtory

    Vtory Illogical Spock

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    Until saw some posts in this thread, I didn't realize later revision of dx3 has such a high Zout. Mine is sorta unicorn survivor of the initial batches, and now I start to suspect some reported graininess might be attributable to later revisions (or ver 2) as I have never thought mine sounded grainy let alone various sonic complaints (not meaty, flatter staging, lame transient, lack of energy/engagement factors, etc etc).
     
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  19. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Almost "Made"

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    Yeah they switched from some type of unique amp to a stereotypical TPA6120A2 one which sucks. To their credit they did get the Zout down to 10 from the typical 30 so there is that. I would imagine the earlier ones were better, but they apparently had some kind of issue where they could damage headphones or some such as well as questionable QC which is why they changed it as I understand it.

    I personally despise TPA6120A2 based amps and the other ones from that same series like the TPA6130A2, they are the laziest designs possible and I have never found one that sounded good. I have tried way too many over the years as they used to be EVERYWHERE. A lot of the creative sound cards used them, the Topping A30 used it and a even supposedly high end stuff too. Always sounds very boring and sterile. The really good TI Op amp based stuff is better.
     
  20. dark_energy

    dark_energy Friend

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    There are known cases where they are trying to get into western factories with high tech and innovation. We just looking around. Probably just corporate people but who knows. Anyone with enough knowledge blocks these requests. Just need to know the dark part of yin yang as well or stay stupid. It just comes down to when you don't have any real business here you don't get in.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020

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