Two DACs: I need to choose the one which sounds better!

do not see much about the Geshilli Dacs, I have two good friends in Chicago who said with all the sparko opamps it competes with the holo dac, anybody have any expereince with it or the new fancy one there coming out with?
best,
Josh

 

I haven’t heard it so can’t say but in general the more fuckery is required to make something good the less believable the hype, there’s just too much confirmation bias possible. And by the time you add up all the options and throw in an lps you could have just bought the dac you wanted.

 

The active ATCs are better than the passives; they have analog delay lines in them (all pass filters https://www.uaudio.com/blog/allpass-filters/ ) to phase align the drivers’ impulse response, can use steeper crossover filters, and limiters to protect the drivers. The passives were made for the baller hifi market to roll amps in speakers designed to be active. The amount of reliable amplifiers that can even deliver that amount of power to the passives for cheap is inexistent and new still low: 2 emotiva high power channels, Bryston, ATC, mc2, crazy class d stuff that’s not the meme ncore stuff that has a fan, need a machine room/closet and will cost you just as much as a used Bryston or atc amp and won’t sound as good.

that topping power amp will suck and can clip and blow the drivers.

cheaper passive atc are still good 2k a pair for the atc scm 11/12. Just not otherworldly good like the ASL line.

 

conversion is basically a solved problem now with the discrete i-v stages, new school audio opamps, modern delta sigma chips, digital fir filters, and crazy pll and asrc clocking. The questions are how steep do you want the filters to be at 44.1 and 48 kHz (chosen for consumer formats because they needed to go in video tape in the 80s), do you want to do it for low latency over usb at 44.1 and 48 kHz (impossible with normal fir filters), and all for dirt cheap? The answer to the last problem is “f**k off”. Even Schiit is charging over 100 bucks a channel for the modius. Not much different pricing than Lynx (32 in, 32 out for over 6k) but of course the 2 in 4 out Lynx Hilo will cost you 4k to get your foot in the door and that is just for the better clock, headphone out, thunderbolt, pro support, and DRIVERS. And it just gets more expensive or convoluted from there like a Burl Mothership.

 

After some more and careful listening, my experience is pretty much the opposite of yours with these two DACs. I find them both capable in the bass, oddly the Sabre more so, but that has a bit to do with using linear phase slow roll-off (it's not a big difference, most of the time if you A/B'd you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.)

I wanted the Octo to sound better than the Sabre so I could keep it (because it uses 8x DAC chips lol), but it just didn't - even though I did a test at 24/192, playing music back at -105dB and the Octo was about 3dB cleaner than the Sabre, at actual listening levels, the Sabre sounds better. It's more dynamic, and the Oct has a bit of a weakness in the 2-3kHz range IMO (not a huge weakness, but it became apparent when there's lots of energy there, like in some electronic drum snares)

About imaging, they both image very, very, very well. Did I say very well? Very well. Wide, deep, superb. Well.
Very well

I sent the Octo back today and I'm thinking of taking the Sabre to my local hi-fi shop and comparing it to some more expensive options. Maybe it is closed in compared to other options - if that's the case, I'll be very surprised.

 

That's why I bought the passives, to make them active with better amps! I just haven't got around to it yet. I had a Kinergetics KBA 280 (140Wx2 into 8 ohms class A) for the woofers, but it's broken at the moment.

The passive crossover in the SCM20 Pro PSL Mk2s is actually a good solution - 3rd order Butterworth, massive air coils, quality audio caps. I think the coils are wound in house like the drivers.

What I really want to do with them is, instead of 3rd order 2.1kHz, I want to cross to the tweeter at 1.6kHz 5th order Butterworth so that the 135mm midbass (cone + 1/3 surround) doesn't have to put much out above 1.9kHz. The tweeter is the S-spec version so can handle it. I sent them 10Hz and they move a good 9mm peak to peak. I think the coil is 1 or 1.2mm and the gap is 2 or 2.5mm, I can't remember. Dual suspension, the S-spec tweeter is niiiiice. So is the SL bass driver with the super-linear magnetic material that linearizes the magnetic field similar to saturation but without a 100lb magnet on the woofer (only takes 20.... lmao)

The LA90 Discrete is actually a really really really clean amplifier - it's been reviewed well too, by people who aren't all about measurements. I'm not all about measurements, though because I have these Topping DACs, many people here seem to think so. I got suckered in for about 3 months, until I bought some $200 -120dB THD+n @1kHz DACs and heard how they sucked compared to things that measure 30-40dB worse... The idiots who think they all sound the same are just that - idiots!

I was thinking of using the LA90D for > 1.6kHz, and the KBA280 for < 1.6kHz. The SCM20 Pro PSL Mk2 SL woofer driver is 85dB/w, and the tweeter 91.5dB/w, so the tweeter can put out more dB before clipping than the woofer, so the woofer would clip first, and the KBA280 can easily drive the entire SCM20 Pro PSL Mk2 speakers (woofer and tweeter) to my liking, so. Even though it's rated for 140W (280 into 4, does over 500 into 2, and 1000 into 1 if you only drive one channel lol), I think the voltage allows for more than 140W.

This post is all over the place because I'm really tired, but it makes enough sense for you to know my plans I hope lol

 

I'm going to make the passives active eventually - been my plan allll along!
It's just taking me a while because the amp I was going to use (140WPC class A) broke and fixing it is problematic
(see my post immediately above this one)

 

Supposedly they measure about the same - my measurement gear isn't good enough for these DACs unfortunatlely

 

After more listening I decided on the Sabre. I also wanted it to be the Octo (really really really wanted lol), but it wasn't...

ATC's Super Linear technology (that material they put in the magnetic circuit that reduces 3rd harmonic distortion by ~15dB compared to the same woofer without it) works from 100Hz to 3000Hz, and in all of ATCs 3 ways, only 100Hz to 280Hz benefits from it. SL-150 (whatever the model number is in my passive SCM20 Pro Mk2) is crossed at 2.1kHz with a 3rd order Butterworth for flat power response (which fills the room with sound better than 2nd order in the actives, but it's not as ideal in the listening position). The only difference (afaik) between ATC's super version of the 3 inch dome and the regular, is the magnetic strength - ATC doesn't use the super linear magnetic material in their domes. I think distortion is about as low as it can be without it anyway, I dunno. Fun fact, the dust cap on the driver in the SCM20s is their dome midrange! And right behind it is the 3" voice coil, so my woofer is basically the 3" dome on an 8mm voice coil in a 20mm gap with a woofer cone instead of horn loading (the woofer cone is the shape of the dome's horn loading)

I'm not done my audio voyage, I'm going to compare the D70 Pro Sabre to some $10-20k DACs at a local hifi shop with similarly expensive amplifiers and speakers (don't know why I didn't think to do so earlier lol),


I'm aware discrete means nothing, it's just the name of the model - there's a version that uses NPN and PNP in the same package. I've used other amplifiers in the past with different levels of feedback, and there really seems to be something special about this one. I wish people were more open minded about it - I'm not accusing you of not being, but there's been a lot of assumptions about Topping, and me having Topping products. Just like there can be a crap sounding class A amp, there can be a good sounding amp with feedback - the LA90 Discrete is definitely worth its cost, and I'd be surprised if another amplifier exists that sounds as good as it does at its price. About Topping's other cheaper products, I think they sound pretty bad - the only one I'd really recommend is the E50, but for its price there are better options

 

Assumptions, assumptions. Most things Topping makes sound pretty bad. Now what?

 

Why sarcastic? It's common knowledge that there's a sweet spot, and past that you get less for every extra dollar. And that's not just in audio!

Amazon allows 30 day returns and delivers in one day, why don't you buy an A70 Pro Sabre (or Octo), slide it into your system, and see how it sounds? You might keep it! (seriously). You have nothing to lose but a bit of time, and is it really a loss when audio is something you enjoy? (well I assume it is)

I don't think measurements are everything. In fact, I don't think they really matter once they're good enough you're not hearing hiss or hum when you turn up the volume.

 

If you're not trolling, read this thread:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/upcoming-texas-mini-meet.14416/

 

Granted, I've never owned a Topping DAC or amp but have encountered them out in the wild. While demo conditions are pessimal for upstream gear (and transducers too, but the differences there tend to be grosser for the most part so it's not as futile an endeavour) what I heard was enough to diminish interest. This would have been a couple generations of gear back if their numbering scheme is to be believed, but from impressions and measurements gleaned I have scant reason to believe that there might've been any substantive change over time.

Also, do note that I've never explicitly stated that Topping was "bad" (not in this thread anyway), merely that they push a narrative of "real transparency" that has come to mean incisive treble response that doesn't really fall in line with my preferences. The point I was making was that it doesn't seem there's much benefit to spending on their higher-tier designs from a purely sonic perspective.

I get it though, reading can be very hard. I'm ESL as well.

 

Wow. Do I like the sound of that word? Lets see how it measures!

Yes... Pessimal, pessimum, a whole family of words including the more familiar pessimism. Even my spell checker has never heard of pessimum. They measure ok.

Do I like the sound? I don't think so. But it is certainly impressive!

 

that's audiophile nonsense. the SL ATCs are a complete system with very expensive drivers, gobs of power, all pass filters to align the impulse response, active crossovers that can be steeper and use optimal filters, do not vary with temperature, are more efficient, and have limiters to prevent you from blowing the very expensive drivers. there is no way that any diy solution will beat it even if you buy a cleaner or more powerful amplifier and I have severe doubts that the topping can compete with the ATC plate amps and P2.

Push the amp, f**k around, and find out.

 

I agree that most Topping DACs are underwhelming... in fact all that I've heard except the D70 Pros have been for me. I've listened to a lot of very high end stuff, I also believe [know] 108db THD+n @1kHz equipment can sound better than 122...

I also do blind tests, they're fun

 

Listen, flat power response from odd order butterworth fills a room better than 2nd and 4th order crossovers, but in the listening position 2nd and 4th order sounds better, especially time aligned. I'm just restating what I said - what's wrong with it, exactly? (filling the room doesn't mean imaging in the listening position if that's what you were thinking I meant - it's literally when walking around in the room)

I've been in audio for 20 years and I've had my SCM20 Pro PSL Mk2s for 5 years. I haven't blown a speaker since I was 11. The D70 Pro into the LA90D is so clean, I can hear the first sign of clipping... And I've done tests with my o-scope connected.


If I told you I think every Topping DAC sounds pretty bad except for the D70 Pro Sabre/Octo, would you think a little differently? Do you have Amazon where you're from? 1 day shipping, free returns, the D70 is on there. If you were to order it (risk free...), I know you'd change your mind. I've listened to a lot of high end DACs.

 

But is this because of the lower THD+N metric, or is merely co-incidental?

 

Coincidental, definitely coincidental.