Xec needs listening/whisky room advice

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Xecuter, Oct 30, 2016.

  1. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    dry wall is in. plasterer coming tomorrow.

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    It's a spotted gum desk with matching shelves, he has left it pretty raw but some lovely ripples through the wood.

    My partners dad is a painter, I was hoping he would do the painting for me, seems he won't be back for a few more months on his tour of Australia, so I'm getting a quote to have it painted all black.
     
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  2. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    Brief update, plastering is basically done he just has to sand it today and the trims are going in.

    Quote for painting was excessive at 3.5k aud for the room, small exterior work and patching the window in the bathroom. we decided to do the painting ourselves.

    considering leaving the cupboard doors off and pushing the couch right to the rear.
    Considering short throw projector instead of long throw to not compromise speaker position as much.

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  3. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    Decided to pay for painting, the guy has spent 3 days painting and he has to still do the outside and touch up the skirting boards after the floor polishing guys come through early next week.

    Aircon and electrics to go and we are done!

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    Going to put she couch where the cupboard should be. Can always do the cupboard later!

    Also a pair of ATC 150aslt have just come up for sale. Not sure if I will be in a position to buy them right now since the build went about 8k more than I was anticipating.
     
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  4. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    That might be a bit much for that space...
     
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  5. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    probably! It's 7x3.7m but I think the room should be handle the low end... I was going to go for the 100 but this one came up for sale for about the same price as the 100s. future proofing?
     
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  6. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    We are in! Spent the entire weekend moving stuff!
    [​IMG]

    Room treatment to come:
    Windows, Ideally I want something I can easily put in and out in case we want to access the window.
    So I'm thinking some DIY MDF frames with a layer of foil to reflect heat on the back, with a layer of 50mm glass wool sandwiched then a thin piece of pine to back it. I can glue panels to the pine. I'll put some little rotating locks on the window frame to stop it falling forward. This is my current best idea.

    Not sure how I should mount the panels for first reflections point and for the cloud.
    I mounted the panels on the wall previously with french cleats and the whole room now needs repainting as the cleats pulled so hard on the paint it's bubbled. I don't think an air gap is required but I would like to minimize damage to the walls so gluing is a no go. I could maybe bolt a piece of timber to a baton vertically and the the french cleats off that. that way I only need to fix the 4-6 holes from screwing the timber into the baton.
    Or I could glue them to a piece of timber and simply hangs the panels off two gyprock screws..
    No idea how to mount a cloud. will have to research.

    I will get a rug for in front of the speakers but it feels like a crime to cover up this floor.

    first impressions of the room with barely anything in was that it doesn't sound terrible. I was nervous with the columns coming in at the centre and the bulk heads at the back that there would be some crazy wonkyness.

    It's pretty good and the a77x sound small for the first time since I've owned them. Will see how hard this null is to treat as I move to larger speakers.

    Please excuse my terrible measurements, it's been a few years since I've used REW + umik1 - criticism welcome!
    1/24 smoothing green is L+ R on axis, red is L aiming directly at speaker, both at a listening distance of about 4 metres.
    [​IMG]

    No treatment at reflection points, and no fiddling with position of speakers. I also think I need to fiddle with the a77x bass settings as I have turned the bass right down from when they were in the previous room which was a bit smaller but taller.

    How sound proofed is the room considering I didn't 'soundproof' by compromising on room dimensions or float the ceiling or floor? When about 10 metres from the room you can hear basically nothing at all when it's at 100dbl. But the room above can hear it clear as day when I crank it.
    I will switch the light fittings with something acoustic specific, and the gasket system they used on the door is not great, it's just a foam seal and i wanted something more professional.

    I do have new speakers coming next month. I bought the 150 ASLT which will be massive and completely overkill but I got them for what it was going to cost me to get the 50aslt so I figured I would attempt to make them work.
    The a77x will be either retired or kept for a potential 5.1 system.

    I think I can put a projector screen in front of the new speakers so will be saving for a projector and motorized acoustically transparent screen.
    I did also order a nice new chair since I suspect this will be where I spend most of my time now! 16 week wait!

    thanks to those who were following my build journey and gave me lots of pointers and ideas!!
    Al
     
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  7. AdvanTech

    AdvanTech Friend

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    I found my speakers with 15” woofers were easier to integrate into my 10’x10’ (3mx3m) room than my older bookshelves with 6” woofers. Much less finicky with placement, maybe thanks to much bigger cabinets?
     
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  8. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Rather than foil backed MDF frames on the window, just get a proper heat reflective window film. I installed some stuff called Gila Titanium which has made a huge difference in my home office and easily dropped my room temperatures by more than 5°C on the sunny days. It looks super dark in the pictures but is quite moderate in person.
     
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  9. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    the heat is not really the main concern, I just thought I would do that to help with heat in the room. The main purpose of the MDF frames is to mount the acoustic panels and get rid of the reflective glass.
     
  10. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Fair enough. Just figured I'd mention it since it's maybe $20-30 of material and an hour at most to install yourself and it's a nice improvement to the room (and I've been super pleased with it in my own home; can't believe I put up with the stuffy room for so many years when the fix was so easy).
     
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  11. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    [​IMG]

    Been in for over a week now with the big boy speakers.

    treatment begins.
    This treatment is just temporary while I wait for some quotes to have the room treatment done professionally:

    These are hybrid diffuser/absorbers, I don't tend to sit this far back when listening and rather bring a chair about 1 m forward of the couch. Might have to get rid of the couch and get some other chairs.


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    Some panels next to the speaker, first reflection doesn't reach me on this side because of the pillar in the next photo.

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    Load bearing pole in here before you ask why I put this in my listening room [​IMG]


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    it symmetrical at least and you'll see in the measurements not the end of the world:

    Decay

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    spikes at 200-300hz possibly a modal issue but will design treatment to try and even this out

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    not too bad at all. considering the windows are still not covered up!

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    Acoustician is reviewing my measurements and planning to make some panels. Will get a couple of quotes and share everything with you guys.
     
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  12. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Some things I find strange:
    • Looks like you already have a decent amount of treatments, yet T60* is in the 500ms range for the whole midrange and upper midrange. I consider that quite high and expected lower, frankly. I'm sure that'll improve.
    • I'm surprised there's as much of an upper mid and upper treble dip with these ATCs. Also bass extension doesn't look the best. Overall balance however looks to my liking. I'm sure they sound better than the FR looks.
    Looking forward to your next update!

    *To clarify, the values are indeed RT60, but calculated from the first 20/30dB decay (after an initial 5dB drop), hence why it says T20/T30 on the graphs. There is seldom enough SNR to calculate a real RT60 IIRC. The Topt calculation is supposed to be more accurate. This is better explained in the REW manual.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2021
  13. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    It looks to me like the treatment that is there now is more on the diffuser side than the absorptive side, and hardwood floors, so the T60 (well t30 but whatever) would seem to make sense to me.
     
  14. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    Yeh they are diffuser panels with absorber backing but they aren't very good at either.
    Also the side ones were put up after I took these measurements. Sorry I should of retaken with the panel up before posting here.

    I need to get a rug and some other stuff but waiting for the acoustician to get back to me about what they suggest panel wise and placement.
    Even if I don't proceed with then at least I'll have a plan based on modelling of the room and measurements.

    Thanks for the input @Serious and @spwath.
    Got a lot to learn about REW and reading these graphs!
     
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  15. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    Some things to consider:

    at first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling go with absorbers

    everything else according to taste

    do you like to be immersed in the music -> add diffusors rather than absorbers

    attention in order for most diffusors to be efficient the minimum distance between diffusor and your listening spot should be 1.5 m

    do you like pinpoint localisation and a neat stage add more absorbers

    want lower reverberation time add bass traps in the corners
    Personally I like very dry acoustics, I would be looking to have a reverberation time from the high frequencies to around 100 Hz not exceeding 400 ms, reverberation time should also rather not be frequency dependant. As a law of nature it will rise at lower frequencies anyhow.

    I prefer rockwool to basotect absorbers. Absorbtion goes lower and is more even over all frequencies. If the absorber‘s efficiency changes significantly with changing frequency this will change tonality.

    Think about bringing the speakers forward, so that they are in front of the pillar(s). The pillar(s) will create a comb filter effect.

    http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-combfilter.htm

    most important enjoy your great speakers

    PS: Have also a look at the ETC, once the spl over frequency plot is sufficiently flat ETC becomes more important.
     
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  16. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    What are the dimensions of the room (length, width, height)?
    I can run some numbers in my spreadsheet to calculate reverb time/ what is needed to get it better
     
  17. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    One more thing windows are plate oscillators(?) they significantly reduce the effect of the room modes. I have a bay window which covers nearly the entire front wall and a small part of the side wall of the left speaker and the effect of the two basic room modes (length and width) is reduced by the window the effect is more pronounced for the left speaker because basically to boundary surfaces are windows. I am not sure wether adding absorbers in front of the windows improves the situation.
     
  18. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    7mx3.8*2.5m. we never ended up doing the cupboard at the rear. So the cad drawing on page 3 is correct just need to add the cupboard and the 400mm to the dimensions.


    Interesting. Yeh I'm not an expert on this stuff but when I chatted to Dennis Foley the windows in my room were his biggest concern. I also want to cover them up to minimise the UV damage to my gear but perhaps I should just tint the windows as was suggested earlier so I don't have to put blankets over the veneer.

    I'm thinking of putting triangular absorbers Infront of the pillars as I'd like to avoid bringing the speakers past the pillars. Just from a functional perspective it makes sense for them to be where they are roughly.
    But definitely keen to add absorption as you suggested but waiting for acousticians report to share with you all to help guide me.

    Honestly sounds excellent to my ears as is but I'd like to maximise what performance we can achieve.
     
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  19. spwath

    spwath Hijinks master cum laudle

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    Ok so I did a bit more, and I will do more later.
    Made a quick mockup of the room in sketchup, and put it into an acoustic modeling webpage my classmate at college made (which is insane, check it out at cram.vercel.app)

    Anyway, this allows me to find the first reflection point. Green is speaker, red is listener
    upload_2021-8-19_17-48-42.png


    I will update it with materials and stuff so i can properly check T60 but for no you can see where the first reflection will hit, and where you want that treatment.
    It can do much more so I will continue to do this after dinner.
     
  20. Xecuter

    Xecuter Brush and floss your amp twice a day

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    This is amazing!
     

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