Yggdrasil MIB was: Jason+Marv Pyrate Edition 11001B

Schiit will change to MIB if you want to from LIM, sure. Or you can swap the boards yourself. There are options for either self-install or Schiit install when you go to the "Yggdrasil Upgrades" section and choose the MIB boards.

And yes, you should listen to MJ3 with LIM in your chain, with your preferences, before making a decision, IMO.

 

Has anyone had success installing new MIB cards into an older non-plus Yggdrasil chassis?

I've been working with Schiit support and after receiving and carefully installing a replacement set of MIB cards I have the same issue. No audio output at all, but it will signal lock and set correct bitrate.

Switch back to A2 cards and all is well again. I let Schiit know this replacement set also doesn't work for me and will report back if / when things get sorted. To be clear, 2 different sets of new MIB cards do not produce audio on my non-plus Yggdrasil.

Curious if anyone else has experienced this?

Update:
Heard back from support and they suspect that older non-plus Yggdrasil will need a specific MIB chip, different for what is usually sent out that works with plus chassis Yggdrasil. The firmware is different because of the different front panel on plus and non plus chassis.

The Yggdrasil+ chassis has a newer firmware on the board that supports LIM, OG and MIB without a need for the specific MIB eprom chip that I mentioned earlier.

Support was able to confirm the fix on an older Yggdrasil chassis they have in the shop.

Hopefully Schiit will add a prompt before purchasing the MIB cards online that asks if you have a plus or non-plus Yggdrasil to avoid this frustration in the future.

Once the issue was figured out Schiit has been awesome in providing support and has already shipped me out a new chip.

 

That’s what I figured re: plus chassis vs. non-plus and MIB. If you only have MIB in plus chassis out in the wild up until now, you risk running into some hiccups with users trying to put MIB into non-plus chassis. Good on them for being transparent with you about their process instead of feeding you a line/keeping you in the dark and just sending a new chip, despite it being frustrating to be on the receiving end of a company fixing the kinks in a product rollout.

 

Just installed the new eprom chip and my Yiggy is back in action with the MIB cards.

First impressions, BLACK AF background (A2 never sounded grey to me, but there it is), treble sounds 'different', reminds me of the internal ESS card on Pietus Maximus (this is a good thing). More depth than I'm used to? Seems to have better layering and imaging. Voices and instruments now clearly come from a specific point in headspace. A2 wasn't able to quite pull this off for me.

Def sounds more balanced across the spectrum compared to A2. Less spice and zing up top, not that that ever bothered me on A2. Sort of sounds like what I wanted LIM to sound like. I'm not noticing any lack of plankton. If anything resolution is up across the board.

This sounds very, very nice. It's only been on for 30 min. Curious what burn in will bring, and which card I prefer long-term.

There is this nagging feeling that some of the magic that brought more realism ala A2 is gone, but I can't place it.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m interested to hear what you think about the realism aspect after it warms up.

 

Ok, it's been playing music for nearly 3 days 24/7 and is sounding better. There was a hardness and slight prickly feeling the first day when I listened while my house was quiet. (I've been listening on and off for a few hours each day). The cards have relaxed a bit.

Here is what I miss about A2...

• MIB has more nuance and detail in the lower frequencies. However, there is less bass quantity.
• Possibly due to the above, there is less impact and slam on MIB. I miss this the most from A2. This may also be the reduced dynamics that @purr1n mentioned? Dynamic swings don't hit me in the feels on albums they usually do. I compensate by increasing volume but it doesn't help.
• MIB seems thinner overall with less weight and heft to notes. Voices, while clear and cleanly resolved, sound a bit lifeless and lacking in a way its hard to place (please note they don't literally sound lifeless, it's just the only way I can describe it now). Female vocals particularly are not as enjoyable on MIB.
  • A note on female vocals, I miss the 'air' from A2. While MIB is more neutral, I can see how the top end of A2 holds a lot of those card's magic realism.
• While I notice more resolution and clarity, I am slightly noticing less plankton. The blackground is nice, but I am missing a bit of plankton. Nothing like LIM, but very slight.

Overall, so far, MIB does feel like a flavor now, where A2, in my opinion was an upgrade in pretty much all categories for me when moving from LIM.

I could see someone preferring MIB or A2 based on their preferences, associated gear and even music genre. A2 sounds more dynamic, impactful, full in the midrange and exciting to me. With DNA Stratus so far A2 is a better match.

TLDR: If you prefer a more neutral, clear dac with better imaging and layering, along with a better blackground, go MIB. If you want more flavor, tastefully elevated bass and treble with more impact and slam, don't notice or care about blackground or prefer grit instead, go A2.

I'm getting pretty sure I'm camp A2, but I will give brain and DAC burn in more time. However, I think folks will have a pretty strong preference for one over the other and I doubt I'd keep the MIB cards around just to have, as my preference so far is strongly A2.

 

8/29/24 NOTE: After living with this DAC for a while I now think my opinion regarding gain and the differences between its outputs was overblown.Things have settled down as the DAC has broke in. I think what I might have been hearing was the slight tonal difference with the MJ3's high gain. The MiB has been noted to have slightly weaker bass than its siblings and I think gain boost shifts the tonal balance just a bit to the lower end - but for whatever reason, the difference I perceived when I originally wrote this post is much much smaller now.

TLDR: Finicky, but it is my favorite Yggdrasil.

I had to remove the A2/OG boards from the Yggdrasil+ chassis so I don't have any direct comparisons between the OG and the MiB. All comparisons made through the MJ3 and Auteur Classic. The Yggdrasil GS used XLR outputs for all comparisons. All comparisons were made after a week of warm-up - the MiB sounded awful the first couple of days.

The following is kind of a summary of my thoughts as I tried to figure out what the hell was going on with this DAC.

MiB XLR vs GS (via switcher into MJ3):
See @RestoredSparda 's notes above. There is not much to add. The GS wins here easy. The MiB here plays flat throughout the range until the treble where it is just slightly less exciting than the GS. From memory the OG betters the MiB here too. (IMO the only slight differences between the OG and GS are the GS's slight v shaped freq response and tasteful "treble fuc#ery" and the OG's slight midrange harmonic richness).

MiB RCA (Mj3 high gain ) vs GS normal gain:
This is no contest. MiB RCA on high gain is where its at. WTF is this!?!?!? The MiB RCA has the slight v shape that the GS has but it reveals the GS's rougher, fatiguing treble. MiB bass (especially the midbass) hits harder while being clearer. MiB's treble is just perfect - it is more active than MiB XLR. Dynamics are close but tilt in favor of MiB. I waxed poetic about how great a combo the GS and Mj3 was in the Mj3 thread, but this makes me not want to listen to that combo anymore.

MiB XLR (low gain) vs MiB RCA (High Gain):
<s>It is like I am listening to two different DACs. There is a bigger difference here than the delta between the OG and GS. The XLR loses in all facets except maybe instrument separation? The XLRs sound dull and less dynamic. The RCAs vibrant, dynamic, and clear. The XLRs freq response is flat until the slight treble rolloff, the RCAs are v shaped with less treble rolloff.</s>

MiB XLR (Mj3 high gain) vs MiB RCA (High Gain) vs GS:
<s>MiB XLR and RCA best the GS (for same reasons that I gave for RCA above), but I'd rank the MiB XLR HG 2nd because of the lack of volume play.</s>

<s>MiB RCA on low gain exhibits the same character as the XLRs on low gain.</s>

MiB (XLR) vs GS speaker system:
I'll keep this brief.
Soundstage width and height, Bass, Midrange: MiB = GS
Treble: MiB > GS
One thing to note is that I replicated the gain issue I described above with my speaker system. My Folsom 7293 amps have 32db gain. My Neurochrome Modulus 186 amps have 20db. The results mirrored the headphone results but the difference between the GS and MiB was smaller.

Summary.
I feel like when I am listening to the MiB on high gain through the MiB or through my speakers I am hearing its true nature (as opposed to what I hear through the XLRs on low gain). A slight V shape, strong bass, propulsive mid-bass, and the best treble I've heard from a DAC. I still feel like I am going crazy. I don't know if what I was hearing was legit. I was going to write this review last Tuesday but I kept delaying thinking "Nah, something is off". Then I go back and listen again - yes I heard right.

I'm just speculating and I obviously don't design dacs or circuits but perhaps increasing the voltage to the output stage opamps or the overall gain of the output stage would make the DAC more consistent. It would worsen those stellar THD specs though. So maybe a new version NtMbtB (Not the most but the best).

 

Anyone got a pic of MIB board?
Curious how it was implemented, if and how it deviates from the TI EVM board.

 

I’m very curious about your findings with MIB and MJ3. I’m listening to the same combo right now and I don’t hear any of what you are talking about. XLR vs RCA sound identical except the increased gain of the XLR. I’m using JAR650B via XLR headphone out.
Are using the Little Bear MC3 in the chain? If so, I suspect it is causing the differences for you. I’m plugging directly from MIB into MJ3.

 

I only used the little bear to compare XLR between GS and MIB. When comparing MiB xlr to RCA i used the Mj3 inputs only. I didnt compare using my HD650 only the Auteur.

 

A quick question, if I may, for those in the know (@purr1n)?

I hear the Yggdrasil A2 as being quite forward in its staging with headphones - as in "up-front," i.e. sitting in the front row, up close to the stage. Is the MiB similar in this respect? Or does it have more depth?

 

All I know is my MiB with the Mjolnir 3 amp sounds awesome. Never heard the A2 DAC. Anyway this combo is what I have, and it is good enough for my ears. YMMV

 

something to consider, unless I'm wrong, is that since the Mjolner 3 is a balanced DAC, you don’t really get an advantage except for possible convenience plugging it in straight from the SE outs of the MIB. If your'e wanting to avoid external SE->bal transformers, by plugging into the SE inputs of the MIB you're just Ising the MIB internal transformers to make the conversion instead of something that might be better externally.

 

Continue to toss around the idea of whether or not I should swap out my LiM boards for the MiB in my Yggdrasil+.

This is in my 2-channel system which is the elusive Yamaha VFETs (C-1 & pair of B-3's in BTL) paired with the Yamaha NS-2000A. So, it's a relatively dynamic sounding system, highly resolving (though, not the last word), natural, and plenty of airy treble. I think treble performance will be important with this system. If it's too edgy or spicy, it'll show.

Those who have been living with the MiB for awhile now, any ragrets?

 

IMHO, upgrading from LIM to MIB would be to trade off some of the darker slope tilt to less of a tilt but more of definition/resolving ability focused across the board. I wouldn't worry about the treble being edgy or spicy with the MiB as it is incredibly linear that you will never hear any peaks or edginess even on really bright recordings at all once settled. If I put it to simple words, MiB takes a back seat and just disappears in my system.

Happy Camper with the MiB and still hasn't changed a bit since owning it so far

 

Own a Yggdrasil in my system feeding my 2ch and headphone setup. Have no real complaints, sounds great but I haven't compared to any other DAC and haven't heard any other in about 2 years. Overall happy though, although can feel it lacks the realism in my vinyl setup.

 

Summary:
LIM is great single ended, meh in balanced, MIB is the opposite.
But I like MIB in balanced, more than LIM single ended.

System:
Yggdrasil plus with LIM and MIB boards→Mjolnir 3→HD800 SDR, Utopia 2

Disclosures:
I haven’t heard Yggdrasil A1/GS or A2.

Before receiving the MIB boards I’d come to prefer listening out of the single ended output of the DACs over balanced. While balanced tends to be more detailed, it removes the natural roundness making things sound overly squared off. It also tends to homogenize tonal character and brings things towards neutral but in a way that’s a bit fake, homogenized. This was the case with Yggdrasil LIM and even held true on DACs with the “gimped” single ended outputs of Gungir A1.

That said, I find the balanced output of the amps, such as MJ3 and Jotunheim 2, to be clearly better than the single ended output, with no negative trade offs. Go figure.

How they sound single ended:
LIM sounds close to natural and, in the ways it deviates, it is pleasurable. It has just a hint more warmth and thickness to the sound compared to a purely accurate presentation. I liken it to the processing on Sony TVs–balanced with just a smidge of extra contrast to make things pop. It also has a way of making the timbre details shine.

LIM’s fault is a slight lack of micro detail. That bit of fuzzy sonic vapor around a plucked string isn’t as fuzzy as it should be. However, the plus side of this missing detail is enhanced clarity and transients hit harder. But there is more of a hard edge and it can come off a bit brittle sounding. Not as smooth as it should be.

With MIB, I was hoping I would gain back that low level detail with only a slight reduction in warmth and density that would bring things towards an entirely neutral/realistic presentation. Well, MIB deviates too far in the other direction. Yep, that extra detail is there, but the entire presentation is now overly sterile and thin. It sounds like it is removing texture from the recording. It also hits like a pillow compared to the LIMs fist. It’s laid back and a little too gentle. It’s a bit like how I feel when I listen to most planar headphones–great microdetails, but that natural body and texture to the sound just isn’t there.

That said, I do prefer the more rounded feel to the sound of MIB, compared to the hard edges of LIM.

How they sound balanced:
Here things flip. LIM sounds off in balanced mode. That thickness which works so well in single ended is now way overdone. It sounds stuffy. Tonal character looses that special warmth and sounds bland. And the edge are now too squared off. This coupled with the lack of microdetail makes it sound sparse. Call me crazy, but LIM seems like it was designed for single ended use.

But with MIB, it’s the opposite. The extra thickness of balanced now makes it sound full bodied. The textural details can now be heard. The rounded sound is tightened up and is more square. I’m not a fan of this tendency, but at least it’s not overdone, like with LIM. And the tone is now much more towards neutral. It’s still a little bland, but much better than the sterilized sound of single ended mode.

And holy crud details. Now, that there is actual body and contrast the detail rendering advantage over LIM stands out. Like a lot more. And its staging has become deeper and more three dimensional in a way I’ve never heard before.

However, it is a little slow sounding. A bit laid back and lacking in energy. And it can still sound a bit stale with dry recordings that are lacking warmth.

Conclusion
My ideal combination of these two would be everything I like about LIM in single ended with the detail of MIB in balanced. The tone, texture and more energetic sound of LIM do a lot to make up for the lower resolution.

That said, I’ll be sticking with MIB in balanced mode. That detail is just so nice.

 

When you’re auditioning single-ended from the Yggdrasil, you’re also doing that on your Mjolnir 3? Could definitely be a pairing thing.

 

If I have to worry about single-ended vs. balanced output when deciding whether to try LIM or MIB to compare against my A2 I've used for years, I think my head might explode. Especially as I use both outputs (balanced to speaker separates; single-ended to Nitsch DSHA-3FN headphone amp).

 

Amen brother. I remember one of Tyl's last reviews of the Focal OG, where if he said something like if a manufacture can't get something other than a wacko FR out of their products, they don't deserve to be rated. I'm at analogous point with digital inputs/analog out on dacs. If you can't approach a SQ agnosticism, don't bother. Ok, perhaps this or that input/output sounds a bit different, but real significant differences??

Holo's products approach this, except that they don't because when combined with HQPlayer/DSD your back to $uber$-tweaking based on inputs, sources, etc...