Yggdrasil MIB was: Jason+Marv Pyrate Edition 11001B

Anyone know if Schiit using the same XLR-transformers in the Yggdrasil line and the Mjolnir3? Suggesting to me that an external XLR-->SE (CineMags?) would be superior to the MJ3's SE output?

 

I don't think that there are any line level transformers in either the Yggdrasil or the MJ3.

 

People...seriously, just listen to the damn things together and decide if they suck or not for you. Then worry about tweaks or inputs or an entirely different dac or amp.

 

True that, but we are also here to learn from the other folks in the community. And to function a bit like a peer review for each other.

And to that end, I need need to apologize—Sorry guys, I was a dummy.

Folks were right to question why my results were so large between the single ended and balanced outputs of LIM/MIB, because it’s looking like I borked my testing. Many of the differences I reported earlier now appear to have been related to improper volume matching between the outputs. You know, something I even said I accounted for, but it looks like I did a half assed job of it.

And because of that I just made the nervousa worse and wasted the time of other folks having to refute my inaccurate findings.

So, I’m going to redo my review, this time with much more stringent volume matching. I want to be careful not to bork anything this time around.

Early results are balanced vs single ended outputs still sound different, but the gulf isn’t as big as I was hearing earlier.

 

Yep, everything is going to be a bit of a black box, concerning how the amp handles each input, the conversion circuity involved, all that jazz.

I’m just hoping to shed some light into comparing single ended and balanced input using a known standard like the MJ3. Most folks seem to the hook everything up as balanced. Nothing wrong with that, but there are some seasoning capabilities with each input that could help folks to tune things to their tastes. I’ve never found the differences between the two standards to be as simple as one is louder than the other.

Maybe Ken level overkill but I’d like to compare an amp with both types of inputs, but single ended circuitry, like a Phonitor, to the MJ3. Run the Phonitor with its single ended output and MJ3 with its balanced output. Then see if the single ended vs balanced inputs still have the same characteristics between each amp.

It wouldn’t be a perfect test, but it could provide some insight. Maybe.

 

Instead of completely redoing my previous review between MIB and LIM I’ll just cover the points where my opinion has evolved. No need to re-ramble about everything.

Testing system was Yggdrasil+—>Mjolnir 3 (balanced output)—>HD800 SDR

This time I volume matched each and every time I switched between single ended and balanced. Procedure was to set the headphones on a foam dummy head. Then play a 1kz tone from Youtube while holding a smartphone microphone at the center of the HD800 rear grill. Volume was then matched using a decibel meter app to 0.1db from where I left off on the previous input.

So, do the single ended and balanced outputs of the DAC still sound different? Yes, but not quite in the way I thought before. The biggest difference between the two outputs is single ended is thinner and balanced is thicker. That may not seem like a big deal but it affected how I listen to each output because I found myself always drifting towards running the single ended a little louder to give it enough same slam and impact. Then, when I switched to balanced it would sound overly thick, like there was too much body to everything. Conversely, if I started with balanced and switched to single ended, everything would seem too thin and lacking contrast.

This is where I got the notion that MIB in single ended mode had no body/texture—I just needed to turn it up, and why I thought LIM in balanced had too much body/texture—I just needed to turn it down. That said, MIB is slightly thinner sounding compared other LIM, but it’s less than the difference between single ended and balanced outputs from either version.

My guess is Schiit tuned the single ended outputs to have a thinner sound in order to better mate with the average single ended amps out there. In my experience, single ended amplifiers tend to have a thicker, denser sound compared to balanced amps. So, I’d bet if you were a normal person using the single ended output with a single ended piece of equipment you’ll have no issues with being tempted to run it louder. That’s just my hunch, more testing is needed, yada yada.

Other minutia of single ended vs balanced outputs

• Single ended is a little warmer, balanced is a little less so. LIM can sometimes sound a little overly warm in single ended. A bit like the colors are a bit too vibrant on a TV. I used to love this trait about LIM but now I find it to be a bit too much.
• Single ended is a bit more bloomy sounding, balanced a bit more square. I still prefer single ended here as it sounds more natural.
• Single ended is a little less detailed, maybe 90-95% compared to balanced (even when turned up a little louder). It’s just slightly fuzzier.

I now prefer the balanced output of either version of Yggdrasil. I’m a detail slut and it’s the best way to maximize resolution. Also, I’m trying to get better at being a responsible listener and keeping the volume down to prevent hearing damage, so balanced wins here as well.

My preference for detail is also a big part of the reason why a find myself still preferring the MIB over LIM. LIM sounds like MIB run through a lower tier tube amplifier. It adds a little warmth and body but fuzzies up the details too much. It sounds good (especially with thin, low res recordings), but I always seem to find myself craving the more detailed sound of MIB.

 

While I still think that the way your testing of SE/balanced is as much a test of the Mjolnir as it is of the Yggdrasil - and doubt anyone could ever do that right, for that matter - that last paragraph hits home with me. Well put on the tube thing!

Here too, I’m gravitating towards the MIB because I can always put tubes in the chain if I want to go the LIM direction. With the LIM, as lovely as it sounds, nothing you can do to tilt it towards MIB.

 

Hi,
Hoping to hear what others have experienced with MiB. I've got the factory installed MiB upgrade (from LiM) burning in for only 30 hours so far, and yeah better detail and stuff, but bass is not what it was with LiM. It's sort of veiled and seems to lack the usual initial attack of the waveform. Curious what others have found in terms of burn-in time for bass and the sound of percussion (snare, cymbals, etc.) to "open up", particularly if you're using a speaker/sub system like I am? (FWIW, I do hear burn-in as a thing and have always left my Yggdrasil on 24/7. Separately, it was incredible how much my new from the factory speakers needed to loosen up to simply sound normal a couple years ago.) Also just read @yotacowboy 's posts, hmmm...

Anyway, I did the Yggdrasil+ chassis upgrade along with MiB. Can I just swap the LiM cards back in and keep or sell the MiB cards (factory installs are not returnable)? I don't know if Schiit provides instructions to do this since their site has the usual legal disclaimer about no user serviceable parts inside, but I think some of you have posted about installing cards in the Yggdrasil+.

Thanks in advance for suggestions.

 

Schiit does not provide instructions, but yes, you can swap the LIM boards back into a Yggdrasil+ chassis without doing anything else. With the old chassis, you would need to switch the EEPROM/firmware chip as well as the cards, but the Yggdrasil+ has a universal firmware chip for all the Yggdrasil boards. I wrote a little quick and dirty summary a while back and @decompositions provided some pictures when he changed to A2 boards from LIM, but with the old chassis. It's the same deal with Yggdrasil+, you just can ignore all the stuff about the EEPROM/firmware chip:

https://superbestaudiofriends.org/i...rate-edition-11001b.13730/page-12#post-419655

As for selling the MIB cards somewhere, sure, should be fine. Since you have an Yggdrasil+, though, if the person that buys the MIB cards has the older Yggdrasil chassis, they would need to contact Schiit to get an EEPROM firmware chip, probably.

 

I ran mine for ~150 hours and it didn't do much of anything for the weird bass response. As stated before, only playing back in 2ch, no headphones. But something was definitely out of sorts below the midrange. And I wouldn't call it "delicate" bass. Sucked out and oddly not matching the rest of the response.

 

I don’t experience rolled off or sucked out bass on my headphone gear at all. Seems to me that there might be some phase cancellation or inverted phase on the bass frequencies but this is just my speculation

 

I don't doubt your impressions but I don't hear this on my MIB at all. Very odd.

 

Update on my MiB and plus chassis upgrade experience after at least ten days of 24/7 burn-in (~240 hours) w/ real music. As purr1n says, at least a week of burn in. I intentionally avoided listening so as to avoid any mental adjustment, and I will add that when I did take a "peek", the sound actively repelled me and I couldn't wait to get away from it. It also made me think about how to quickly unload the boards and reinstall the LiM boards. But after ten days, things have turned around here...

Well then, my impressions?

Lots to like, and note these are observations in a speaker system using XLR output from MiB to preamp, with lots of aftermarket electricals (Shunyata Delta v2 XC power cables, PS Audio P12 regenerator) and based on my LiM memory (of course) vs the new MiB/Yggdrasil+ upgrade:

• Do burn in for at least a week, 24/7 or the equivalent number of hours. The change from sonic barf (the bass problem noted above) to great stuff is astonishing.
• Surprise for me: AES with Shunyata Sigma AES cable is technically good/great sounding, but emotionally lacking compared to USB using Phasure Lush^2 USB cable and original Audioquest Jitterbug USB filter (adds "sparkle" to high treble and greater reverb air vs no Jitterbug)
• Greater overall detail/resolution distinguishing individual notes, instruments, percussion, effects, etc. allowing me to effortlessly hear "new" things and a better balance between instruments/tracks in the recording
  
• Greater separation or "black-ground" between instruments/tracks, which is related to the presentation of instrument/track balance noted above
  
• Greater frequency extension on the bottom end and up top vs LiM
• Flattest frequency response (like, horizontal!) ever seen on my iOS Decibel X app - LiM was pretty flat too but with slight downslope from bass to treble
  
• Greater overall tonal body and greater decay lengths and better timbral quality (such as cymbals and snare drum)
• Strong PRaT head-bobbing engagement and especially emotional connection w/ music resulting in "just one more song" after song after song, after switching from AES to USB input (see more below)
  
• Evidence of these attributes: I'm clearly and effortlessly hearing very low bass guitar and kick drum lines previously "buried" in the presentation (there but "unheard" or difficult to easily discern)--MiB has greater extension in bass vs LiM, also in various dance/EDM music production sounds
• The notes in rapid arpeggios of classical solo piano recordings are more distinct with natural sounding decay and a greater sense of tonal weight and pitch accuracy through MiB vs LiM
• The "soundstage" of hard rock and metal recordings don't fall apart, they retain cohesion and busy passages of everyone shredding at high tempo are more effortless to take in than with LiM which wasn't bad to begin with, indeed LiM is excellent but MiB is, well, more better

Lastly @purr1n used the word "delicate" and yes via AES, there is for me a kind of delicate quality to the sound in that it isn't sharp enough for me (the attack of the sonic envelope) and there is a kind of slight gentleness to the overall presentation vs. the LiM (and compared to most systems and gear I've heard). I really struggled with this and could not bring myself to trade away the LiM's energy for the MiB's extra resolution/detail. But, the extra detail...it is more music after all. But, this just wasn't working for me because the intangible, subjective emotional connection was lost.

Then I thought to try USB instead of AES. I have avoided USB until now for the reasons people here know well. I've a few years of USB decrappifiers lying around from 2015 and know the various brands well (I have four, at least!). OTOH, I have read that Mike now prefers Unison as his Yggdrasil input, and so with this new chassis and the MiB, maybe it would make a difference? It sure did.

Probably the biggest surprise for me is how much better I find USB to be in my system. My ultimate test of gear for system synergy is a) if I really can't pull myself away - just want to keep putting on one more song and I'm way past bedtime or I should start doing something else...but one more song! And b) if I find myself easily, effortlessly, listening to my test tracks and finding myself completely absorbed in the music through the whole song rather than thinking I want to skip to hear other parts or other songs. It tells me something when I find myself at the end of the song feeling energized to hear more. This wasn't happening as intensely with AES so I thought I've nothing to lose, let's try USB. I made the switch and immediately, DAMN....there it is! All the points above became evident, including the return of the more full-bodied sound of the LiM. Just goes to show you shouldn't get locked into thinking "there's only one way rock."

Keeping the MiB, selling A2 and LiM boards. And sorry, I don't know if any of the above applies to headphones. Thanks again to all for sharing your impressions of MiB. You helped me take the plunge!

 

Hope this isn't too much neurosis for y'all - here's a brief update on the impressions above:

I have continued to enjoy the change in the systemic character of sound with MiB, but there has been something sort of nagging me and I will have to put the LiM boards back in to see if I can do a comparison and put my finger on what it is. Maybe I will find time this weekend and early next week.

While I wrote I'm hearing "greater separation and black-ground vs LiM," I think I may have to walk that back a bit. This might be the SBAF glossary difference between plankton and detail or something, I'm not quite sure. After more listening, I am feeling there is more distinction between the sonic pieces in how they fit together. That probably doesn't make sense, but I suppose you could say LiM's pieces fit together while MiB's pieces blend a bit together - not in a blurry way, but the sonic space between tracks/performers isn't as black as the overall black-ground. Without an easy swap, it will take me time to confirm if this memory is accurate enough.

For example, from my memory of the LiM it's more effortless to hear certain harmonies sung by Geddy Lee and how it's mixed on the remixed version of Ceiling Unlimited, from Vapor Trails Remixed by Rush on the LiM than I'm hearing now with MiB. And this record is not the cleanest recording but it serves to illustrate a sonic reference point I use. OTOH, the piano notes I wrote about above on Nojima Plays Liszt's Feux Follets ring clear and clean. I think I'm hearing the dynamics of the individual hands' chords and arpeggios playing off each other beautifully, even when focusing on the accompanying chords instead of the melody. The decays sound real to me (I've a baby grand at home) but there is still just this general sense that the separation with MiB is not as distinct as with LiM.

So call me crazy if you like. I feel I stand by what I wrote above with perhaps the separation comment, but I am wondering if I actually wind up liking LiM better after some time because despite MiB's "better" performance, there is something about LiM that I can't easily put into words and that may be the sonic attributes that matter to me. I will eventually report back, assuming the board swap(s) go okay in the coming weeks. This may just be the Schiit flavor thing playing out, although I do think the MiB is "better" in most ways.

 

Thanks for your extensive write-ups on the MIB vs. LIM. You beat me to it Wholeheartedly agree on your last three bullets. It does sound like the "better" DAC technically, in the sense that Joe Bonamassa might be a better guitar player than Eric Clapton, but at this point differences vanish in favour of style & preference.

I'm less sure on the amount of burn-in required - can go quite a bit faster, in my experience - and on the "one more song" thing. Between the LIM and MIB, I'd say that's more genre-specific, where the LIM is so addictively sweet with brass instruments that it's spellbinding.

Still, I have firmly settled on the MIB. In fact, when I also took a moment to go back to the LIM, that's when I made the final call. Here's why:

I started with the LIM and loved it. Like I said, it can be spellbinding. When I switched to the MIB, I did find it to be a tradeoff between more technicalities and less engagement, and I was unsure. Kind of like my mind went MIB but my heart LIM.

I was about to give into my heart with a final check on the LIM. But BOY I found out that switching MIB-to-LIM was a whole different matter than switching LIM-to-MIB. Going back to the LIM, I immediately picked up on the decrease in detail and a more compact soundstage. Trying out some of those captivating brass sections, yes they were still better, but not to the spellbinding degree that I remembered.

An earlier poster said something along the lines of the LIM sounding like it is run through a lo- to mid-fi tube amp. While that may be an exaggeration in these TOTL DAC spheres, relatively it's on point. It also means that the MIB is a more flexible tool, because you can still shape the sound by putting tubes in the chain if you want, whereas with the LIM, that's not reversible.

So I was glad that I tried the LIM again after the MIB, because it firmly aligned my heart with my mind, with no unsure decision to stick with the MIB. Interested to hear about your findings when you switch back!

 

@roderickvd you just highlighted my plight! I have not posted much on SBAF for many reasons, among them that I'm a speaker user, and that explaining all. the. things. about. my. preferences. Who the hell wants to read all that?!? (Um, I actually like reading about all you allz preferences and priorities; hence my lurking) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Plus I have never really felt like I have neurvosa to kvetch about: I have a semi-systematic way of onboarding new stuff and I know my preferences from many reference tracks that I cycle through over time. My son plays piano and violin and used to sing in choir. I wear earplugs at loud events. So I can tell how something sounds within seconds and if it's thumbs up or down. So this struggle with MiB vs LiM is both obvious and mysterious. Why do I feel like I'm missing something when the evidence seems to suggest clear superiority? Or, is it just both different, and better, but not "better" in how I've become accustomed to hearing my system?

Anyway, I want to share something positive: I have over a dozen CDs of nature sounds by a guy who records birds and natural spaces such as ocean waves, frogs, etc. These recordings are lovely and I wish I could pay for him to go to the tropics to record those birds and forests. But you're asking, how do they sound, and on the new MiB boards?

Damn....even better than LiM (again).

I really feel like I'm in the woods with these CDs played back via MiB over SPDIF coax from CD player. The thunder clap was almost frighteningly real. The frogs are maybe a wee bit sharper than I'm used to hearing them, but that could be my room needing better wall treatments (which they admittedly do), or the coax from CD (which I have also felt betters my streaming sources). The "soundstage" to roderickvd's point, is the whole forest...pretty cool!

Check 'em out: Bruce at https://www.natureguystudio.com/

So yes, I am hoping to make time this weekend to swap the LiM boards back in. I really do like MiB. I really don't know why I feel I am missing....something? Time will tell, I guess.

 

I can tell you what you are really missing: the better wall treatments