Yggdrasil MIB was: Jason+Marv Pyrate Edition 11001B

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by internethandle, Aug 29, 2023.

?

Anyone interested in Yggdrasil MIL-B Pyrate Edition

  1. Yes, I'd like to be in a limited run of a new DAC

    48.4%
  2. Yes, although I'd rather go the upgrade boards route

    51.6%
  1. internethandle

    internethandle Almost "Made"

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Likes Received:
    913
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    long beach, ca
    MOD EDIT, START HERE FOR CONTEXT: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-marv-pirate-edition-11001.13730/#post-414731


    Not to crap up the MJ3 thread up with MIL vB talk/pleas, but I knew I would be VERY interested in moar MIL/MIL-B/whatever from @schiit the moment you first described its sound in the other thread. I love LIM, but it definitely requires some component matching in a way that some of the other Schiit DAC's do not re: its dark slope, and TBH I'm just a bit bored of it at the moment and would love a more neutral, resolving flavor to play around with from time to time. A2 did nothing for me, for whatever reason, despite being a huge OG BF2 guy -- I was really sensitive to its greyground. Anyway, just my two cents.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2023
  2. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Likes Received:
    6,250
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Funny you mention this because I recently did a LIM vs GS comparison when I had the Rag, and I too found the GS to be the best DAC I'd ever heard (yes I've owned the A2) and a fuckton more resolving than the LIM, which sanded away plankton like Thanos disintegrating at the end of Avengers Endgame. That is a major exaggeration for effect, and don't fret LIM owners, the DAC is still great for what it does well (and makes the BF2 sound boring in comparison), but it was very hi-fi sounding, and when I had it paired with my old ZDSE a while back this was not that apparent, as the warmth of that amp probably hid alot of it. Rag 1.5 is unforgiving and ruthless. It was actually shocking going from LIM to GS, as I'd never really heard the original Yggdrasil for any period of time other than a brief audition ages ago.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  3. leafy

    leafy Facebook Friend

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Location:
    Taiwan
    Sorry this is on the verge of hijiacking this thread but this is a question for @schiit , if we were to buy a Yggdrasil+ today, any chance we can choose the MILB version?
     
  4. Clemmaster

    Clemmaster Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,288
    Trophy Points:
    113
    By that time, it’ll be the MILF version.

     
    • Epic Epic x 15
    • Like Like x 6
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 3
    • List
  5. Emojiless

    Emojiless Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    May 6, 2020
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Lithuania
    Thanks, guess I can always upgrade to 2/64 if I find the lows too thick.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  6. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    10,015
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Texas and California
    Home Page:
    We're considering doing a short run of them, but there's no current way to get one. Maybe split this subject off the thread and see how many people are interested? I'm fine with doing the Jason/Marv Pirate Edition 11001 or whatever we end up calling it.
     
    • heart heart x 19
    • Like Like x 13
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • List
  7. Azimuth

    Azimuth FKA rtaylor76, Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Likes Received:
    7,084
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Home Page:
    I would be down.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 3
    • List
  8. Poimandres

    Poimandres Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2020
    Likes Received:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The North
    I think I’d be up for one of these as well.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  9. M3NTAL

    M3NTAL Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,755
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Arizona
    Nobody has said it - if the M3 is up for sale after the loaner - I'm callin' freakn' dibs! The flexibility and what I assume is magnificent reproduction will make this a BIFL item. Heatsink color be damned.
     
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 1
    • List
  10. Boops

    Boops Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,191
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    New York
    Starting this thread to capture interest in the small run described here:

    Screen Shot 2023-08-30 at 1.12.37 PM.png

    Mods, feel free to move to somewhere more appropriate if need be.

    Count me as interested.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Epic Epic x 2
    • Respectfully Disagree Respectfully Disagree x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  11. ilikebananafudge_

    ilikebananafudge_ Friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2021
    Likes Received:
    1,171
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I'm not a Friend, but I'm definitely interested! I'd love to compare to my DSHA-3F

    Edit: Oops I misunderstood and thought this was referring to a loaner for the MJ3, but I'm also interested in hearing the Yggdrasil MILF
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,758
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Not at all crapping up the thread. We have good active members and moderators will help re-organize threads.
     
  13. Soups

    Soups Sadomasochistic cat

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2017
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    WA
    I hope these MIL-B boards might be offered as an upgrade option. I'd definitely send my Yggdrasil A2 in for a Yggdrasil+ update if that were the case.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • List
  14. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    10,015
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Texas and California
    Home Page:
    I'm checking in on logistics, but I suspect we'll be able to do a short run of MIB (More is Better) in the next month or so.

    A longer run is also possible, since the AD5791 used in Yggdrasil OG is essentially unobtanium these days, and, even if available, would result in a $3000+ Yggdrasil due to insane price hikes.* But we'll see.

    If we do this, I'd expect we'd have some upgrade boards available. But still figuring it all out...

    *This is a not-so-subtle hint that "if you want OG, better jump in soon."
     
    • heart heart x 16
    • Like Like x 12
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List
  15. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

    Pyrate Contributor
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,560
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    nowhere and everywhere
    would love the mil-b as a small run... sounds perfect. I liked, but not loved the LIM on the loaner tour and I haven't put ears on any other flavors. Greyground descriptions on the OG kept me from pulling the trigger. MIL-B description sounded perfect...
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,758
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    So let me do a quick summary. A while ago, and this was on the tail end of the AmirNAD fad (SINAD at full scale, 1kHz stimulus, 20kHz bandwidth, 100/200kHz loads for SE/BAL respectively), Jason decided to hop on board because Texas Instruments had a new DAC chip that could do up to 120db AmirNAD. It wasn't an audio chip, but the given the DSP chops of MM, Dave, and Ivana, it wouldn't be much of a problem to get audio data into the chip. The chip in question was this: https://www.ti.com/product/DAC11001A

    Henceforth the Yggdrasil More is Less or MIL was born. Read about it here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...discussion-and-measurements-eventually.11932/

    Basically the MIL sounded like ass. Heck, even MM said it sounded like ass. Well known people from audiophilestyle.com and audiohead.com liked the MIL the least in a three way shootout (OG/A2, LIM, MIL) at the Schittr. Jason liked it though or maybe he saw the potential.

    So what gives? Do we just don't like stuff that has perfect AmirNAD? There is a good discussion about the intricacies of the MIL's measurements starting here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ue-science-and-exploration.13584/#post-411401

    Turns out that while the MIL "scored" with a great AmirNAD of about 118-119db, when we looked past AmirNAD, that is past the 1kHz signal, into the higher frequencies from 8kHz and up, particularly at higher output levels, the harmonic distortion gets kind of ugly. (In hindsight, I am glad that I took and kept the the original MIL measurements)

    Original MIL
    THD+N vs Frequency
    [​IMG]

    MIL-B
    THD+N vs Frequency
    [​IMG]

    NOW IN THEORY THIS SHOULD NOT MATTER!. The reason is that the 2nd harmonic of say 10kHz, is 20kHz, as we are humans cannot hear this. However, theory, or a simplistic way of looking at things won't necessarily explain everything. I suspect there is some audible transient behavior stuff reflected in those ultrasonic oddities taken with those steady state signals.

    So I guess the story is that TI calls @schiit and tells him: Hey, we have this new B version that fixes the measured ultrasonic f'ery. Wanna try it out. Of course we know @schiit will not refuse, at least to try it. And thus voila, the MIL-B (or whatever it's going to be called). I asked Jason if I could borrow this because, you know, we like real science here. Actually exploring and learning new things is fun! Sticking to an old dogma is dumb (and yes, the THD+N cult has been around forever, read up on Doug Self)

    I racked the MIL-B up, took some measurements to confirm the differences between the DAC11001A and DAC11001B. Took a quick listen, and I was like, hey it's pretty good. The MIL-B fixes the major issues I had with the MIL. I took a good listen to the MIL-B after two days for everything to stablize. The MIL-B retains the neutral tonality of the original and was more resolving than the LIM I was currently using. I quickly replaced the LIM with the MIL-B for gaming duties. Still, after two days, there was still a bit of grain or pricklies that could be heard in the highs (this with the Piety). Yes, I'm nitpicking. However, I communicated to Jason that the MIL-B should be considered as an offering from Schiit - because most of Schiit's DACs sound rich and creamy, like "cake" (credit: @Psalmanazar). The MIL-B would provide an counterpoint to the existing offerings. Also I know many people who work on sound in "the biz" (which is dead right now because of the strikes) prefer neutral clear sounding gear (not to be confused with lean or nasty).

    So fast forward a bit, I pick up a Mjolnir 3 for myself and try out a few DACs to see which ones I preferred best, you know, the synergy thing. Turned out the DAC11001B based MIL-B was the winner. Not only that, but the MIL-B had been baking for a few weeks now. With a more resolving setup in front of me, I didn't realize how much it had changed.

    My main deal was trying to get this recording, Temple of the Dog (if you guys don't know, it's early Chris Cornell with the Pearl Jam guys), to sound right. This is grunge here with a lot of overlaid guitars. While the mastering isn't bad (I think the sound is intentional), on the wrong setup, it's can be an headache with so much energy in the upper mids. The Gungnir A2, known for being upper mid-forward, was not a good match (regardless of headphone - I had RS2X, Caldera, HD600). The thing is the recording is suppose to hurt (it's supposed to be grunge in a shitty venue), that anyone who has attended such events know that the hurt shouldn't come with unnatural treble f'kery (unless the house PA system is being overdriven into clipping). The LIM sucked balls because it was too dark and not resolving enough for my taste. The MIL-B proved perfect. The final confirmation came with me using the JAR600. The JAR600 is a corrected and improved HD600, but still retains some HD600ness. Was this going to sound like nails in my ears? (FWIW, I quickly moved the MIL-B from my office to the bedroom where the Mjolnir 3 resides to avoid any downtime and need to a re-warmup).

    Nope. Not only that, I realized that the MIL-B exhibited this dreamy sweet wall-o-sound or wall-o-guitars quality*. It's like being at the event with the secondhand weed smoke. WTF? This was not supposed to happen with the neutral DAC!. Wow! The MIL-B nailed it. Now more than ever, I'd really like to see the 11001B based Yggdrasil go to production. I think most people will still be pleased with whatever they are running currently (on this site it would seem to be Rockna, Holo, Schiit, the various NOS sideshows), but the MIL-B in my opinion deserves to be in the pantheon of offerings.

    IMG_1343.jpg
    Panther and Pyrate are in agreement

    Schiit Yggdrasil MIL-B (proto)
    SBAF GONAD Panel
    [​IMG]

    *YMMV. I am using the Shanling ET-3 CD transport and physical CD media as the source using the AES outputs.
     
    • Like Like x 31
    • Epic Epic x 8
    • heart heart x 1
    • List
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2023
  17. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,685
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NJ
    Sign me up baby!
     
  18. TomNC

    TomNC Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2015
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hillsborough, NJ
    I'm interested in getting one. But besides the new TI chip, how about the suggestion of a better output stage (OP amp?) to improve clarity if I recall correctly?
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

    Staff Member Pyrate BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    90,758
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Padre Island CC TX
    Yeah, this one got the fairly recent new-breed 128db SINAD balanced opamps.
     
  20. Walderstorn

    Walderstorn Friend

    Pyrate
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,916
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Europe
    Thanks for the review/description purrin. From the looks of it i will keep my A2 but i do think it's awesome that Schiit offers different flavors for different tastes. Wish more companies would go that route.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agreed, ditto, +1 Agreed, ditto, +1 x 2
    • Epic Epic x 1
    • List

Share This Page