Amphion Argon 2

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by murphythecat, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Just bought a pair of used Argon 2 for 600$ usd for my desktop setup. I'll be able to compare against my ATC SCM7v3 and Harbeth P3ESR

    I was introduced to Amphion with the One18 and those One18 speakers have left a lasting impression. I loved my time with my One18 and their imaging is still to this day the best ive had in my room. Ive sold my one18 not because I didnt like the sound but because it did lack under 100hz being a 6.5 inch woofer and I thought that for 3000$ USD, they were not offering me enough bass to justify their price.

    So yeah, The argon 2 being so cheap seems like a bargain since it shares basically the same design philosophy as the one18: low xo for the tweeter, waveguide. the Argon 2 use the same enclosure dimension, the same 6.5 inch Seas midwoofer as the One18, but it uses a custom audax tweeter (the one18 use a custom seas tweeter). The pictures of the argon 2 crossover suggest a very simple XO. Measurements are even better then the one18.

    From what I understand, this review seem to suggest that the Argon 2 actually use 1st order xo, and the picture of the argon 2 xo definitely seem VERY simple, 1 coil and 3 cap for the entire speaker.
    interesting

    https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/49-amphion-argon-2


    Its interesting to see that the soundstage measurements differ from other reviews:
    https://www.soundstage.com/measurements/amphion_argon_2/
    https://translate.google.com/transl...oly-glosnikowe/49-amphion-argon-2&prev=search
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
    Thad E Ginathom likes this.
  2. Collusion

    Collusion Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Likes Received:
    243
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Finland
    I've owned a bunch Amphions, in this order:

    Argon 2 Anniversary (with a titanium tweeter)
    Xenon (1st revision)
    Argon 3 MK II

    I agree with you on the imaging perspective - very impressive in that regard. Though I had a hard time getting them to sound pleasant in the long run. I've always found them to have a frequency balance reminding me of a loudness type effect, lower midrange being somewhat attenuated. Upper treble especially sounds exceptionally clean, but also somewhat attenuated too. With unsuitable and/or bright amplifier and dac they can sound like a nightmare. Room acoustics have also a big effect, especially if they supress the lower midrange even further. Amplifiers used back then were Marantz PM-15S1 integrated and Audiolab 8000P power amp. I didn't use them in near field setup though, so YMMV.
     
    Psalmanazar likes this.
  3. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    interesting, thanks!
    if I look at the argon 3 measurements, it indeed seem to show the lower midrange attenuate compare to the mid and upper mid, and a weird peak from 600 to 800hz. https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/amphion_argon3/

    the argon 2 measure much more flat https://www.soundstage.com/measurements/amphion_argon_2/

    I wonder how the argon 2 anniversary measure.


    what speakers do you use now?
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    47,311
    Dislikes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    They are consistent except for the bass bump in the PL site. Might be because they used a boundary and SSN had them measured in the middle of open space / anechoic chamber.

    I wouldn't run first order on those Seas aluminum. They ring like mad around 8kHz, like a +15db spike. That's just 2.5 octaves above the xover point, and at 6db slope, the tip of the spike just ends up almost flat even from the response at the xover point. Won't see this on FR measurements because the tweeter output will hide it, but can definitely hear it. They really need second order at a minimum.
     
  5. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    This is very interesting. What types of measurements will show this ringing? Will CSD or step response plot?

    Edit: maybe a frequency response plot that shows the contribution of each individual driver? I’m definitely a measurement noob, just trying to learn where I can.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
    yvv likes this.
  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,789
    Dislikes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    113
    USD 600 used is not that cheap, the price just isn’t a total joke for what you’re getting. These Amphions aren’t a bargain at all compared to active 6.5” woofer two ways; they’re just appropriately priced compared for an MDF 6.5” woofer 2-way compared to their ridiculously overpriced pro line and floorstanders.

    Amphion crosses over low at 1.6Hz. Everything I’ve heard from them (the floorstanders and Ones) also sounds overdamped and compressed. That sure helps making the ringing tolerable too. Amphions are not something most people here would think worth buying.

    Most SBAFs and Cheap Bastards not wanting the polar opposite of Harbeths would probably prefer the Yamaha HS8 (HS7 is too thin like Amphions), Adam A7X, KRK V series Kevlar stuff, bigger KEFs, and modern Genelecs for more widely-available similarly sized listening speakers if they like their respective sounds. There’s a ton of stuff better than Amphion but also a ton of audiofool crap two way bookshelves that are infinitely worse. Amphions are for people who demand only Amphion sound and are willing to pay Amphion prices to get it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
    yvv likes this.
  7. yvv

    yvv Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2018
    Likes Received:
    90
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, UK
    This. But in many cases it's subtle and wouldn't' show up in the measurements. Still could be audible.

    B&W DM603 S3: If you see a crocodile...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
    Psalmanazar likes this.
  8. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    not sure how to even compare adam a7x to yamaha hs-8

    yamaha hs-8 are simply harsh and muddy
    Adam A7x are to my ears much better, detailed. I however find that they dont do good soundstage at all, very little depht. I actually preferred cms50 vs A7x and bought cms50 about 7 years ago. All the active speakers I have had were not musical to me, i prefer passive speakers.

    The Argon 2 at 600 USD is a deal in todays market. just the cabinet and the seas drivers and xo would cost about 600 usd to DIY.

    the ringing should have been dealt by the xo and tamed. some will say that they can still hear the ringing even if its been reduced by a lot by the xo. not sure if its true. one thing for sure is that aluminum drivers woofers have a sound that some may dislike. I personally quite like Seas aluminum drivers
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
    yvv likes this.
  9. Collusion

    Collusion Almost "Made"

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Likes Received:
    243
    Dislikes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Finland
    Now I'm all Genelec (1032A and 8030b in different setups), though I'm currently looking for passive speakers to pair with a Rega Elex-R integrated amp. I had a short fling with Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 floorstanders a while ago, but I found them to be quite dark sounding and lacking in resolution. Tonal balance depended heavily on your listening position too, especially on the vertical axis. Still they occasionally managed to sound pretty fun with selected material, especially if it made a good use of Sonus Faber's robust bottom end. I only purchased them as I got an insane package deal with the Rega, due to a pricing error on dealer's end.

    Whatever I end up with, they need to be good enough looking to be allowed into the living room.
     
    Psalmanazar likes this.
  10. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    sadly, a situation happened and I wont be keeping those Amphion

    even though they sound great, imo, they are bright speakers.

    i compared my Seas a26 vs the amphion and to both me and my GF, its not even a question, we much prefer the seas. The seas bass is more weighty and real. the amphion got impressive bass for its size, but its without a doubt limited and boomy compared to the A26. I find the A26 do textures and tonality way better

    I guess im done with metal cones and small speakers for good.

    go big or just listen with headphones :)
     
  11. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    because the Amphion use the same binding post allowing for bi wire, ive tried the same A26 method and installed a 12 ohm resistor between the positive and negatve of the left side.

    results, incredible! My measurements shows that with a 8 ohm resistor, I get about -4db compared to stock measurements. it effectively tame the treble to very tolerable brightness!

    measurements to follow
     
    philipmorgan and jexby like this.
  12. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ok, so the first line is stock flat setting, simply by using a wire between woofer and tweeter left side
    second line is with 8 ohm
    next line is 10 ohm
    third line is using a 15 ohm
    last line is 18 ohm

    Ile settle with the 8 ohm or 10 ohm most likely
     
  13. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    I am had asked you about possibly doing this back here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/seas-a26-kit.7206/page-3#post-239998

    But you suggested this was a bad idea - something about these speakers make them more amenable to it, or you’ve changed your position on it now? ;)
     
    Poleepkwa likes this.
  14. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I thought this was possible only with 1st order design. Im curious if it work on any speaker with dual binding post.

    id like to know myself. maybe try and take measurements...

    I think what happens here is that the tweeter is 1st order so it works? Anyone knows?
     
  15. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    So, what happened is I received the speakers with one woofer broken. Opened the speaker, and realized a mouse had been living there and ate the wire going from the voice coil to the driver terminal. The buyer was fair, paid for the new driver bought directly from Amphion. All in all, I ended up saving near 400$ CAD because of this. The argon 2 pair ended up costing me 375$ USD!

    The argon 2 stock are BRIGHT. The audax tweeter is good, but need taming. Treble is to me unbearably bright. it makes vocal sound harsh and too forward. Measurments shows its flat up to 3khz then 3db rise from there up to 20khz, but my perception is that the tweeter is at least 4db too hot.

    Eq'ed down and what you have is interesting. First thing that jumps at you is the bass. I dont know how or why, but these speakers push out a lots of bass, much more then you would ever guess by just looking at them. the quality of the bass is also excellent: fast, tight, well timed, just very good. Stop and go on a dime. very tight. sub bass is boomy, but in a well controlled matter. Imaging seem stable. I find the sound natural and coherent. it makes for a musical presentation. The metal Seas driver is a interesting view of the music, clinical and very clear, lacking in tone differiention and id say lacking in richness, its a cool tone. Music is upfront and energetic and almost aggressive, think Focal Utopia like. These speakers need EQ to tame the treble. i Bought a Schiit Loki for it. BAsically, every speakers that I have had that use metal mids have that sort of qualities more or less.

    I have had lots of speakers in this living room: jbl lsr32, Tannoy berkeley, kef ls50, genelec 1037b, and many more. These amphion when eq'ed are by far the best I have had in this room. Its a musical presentation, coherent, and fun. not the best at mid magic, or timbre, but the metal seas driver has a sound that is very interesting to own.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    Collusion likes this.
  16. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    sold 'em

    im done with metal cones and small speakers
     
  17. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

    Friend
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2016
    Likes Received:
    1,587
    Dislikes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    NOVA
    Home Page:
    definitely post thoughts on the ANs if you end up picking up that pair. I think they're an overlooked gem for the money.
     
    rlow likes this.
  18. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

    Friend
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Canada
    Yeah I have yet to hear a single metal cone I’ve liked, and only one metal tweeter. Poly or paper cones and soft done tweeters for me.

    I’m planning to grab the next decent pair of Audio Notes I can find used - have been curious about them for a while.
     
  19. murphythecat

    murphythecat Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    93
    im going big at this time. 12 or 15 inch woofer, nothing smaller, im so sick of the lack of body from small woofer (8 inch is still small). im sure they are good for what they are.

    Ive heard today a 12 inch vintage philips widebander, a old pioneer 3 way using 12 inch woofer and some diy jbl l300. ill say i find even 12 inch seem a big step down vs a 15 inch. im done and truly over with small speakers
     
  20. Victor

    Victor Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Likes Received:
    60
    Dislikes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I always read your posts with great interest because our findings appear to line-up. The larger speaker idea and 'non-metal/titanium' dome's is what I'm looking for as well. What are some speakers on your short-list that fit this list?
     

Share This Page