DAC Blind Test: Modi2 vs ODAC

Discussion in 'Blind Testing and Psychoacoustics' started by purr1n, Nov 17, 2015.

  1. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Wouldn't a valid test, to satisfy this, be to listen normally but just without the sighted view.

    It may add a lot to the logistics, but It takes away a lot of the objections, and rules out those that AB testing has to be short-duration segments.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Let's replace the insides of lm4der's Bifrost Multibit with Modi guts and see if he notices. This would be a good test.
     
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  3. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    Yeah... dammit, there should be a way for me to do a test of some sort. I think I would have to listen to Modi 2 for a several days. Then have my wife randomly set up either Modi 2 or Bifrost Multibit under a box so I don't know which it is. Listen on the box covered rig for less than 30 mins (because the difference is notable to me quickly after the extended time on the other). At this point, according to my own theory about my listening, I should be able to succeed at this. It would take many days though to get results... I will ponder...
     
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  4. Thujone

    Thujone Friend

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    I guess I'm one of the few people who prefers a quick A/B in order to actually tell minute differences?

    If we are strictly talking about amps or DACs (especially DACs), I don't trust my brain to decipher differences if I listen to component A on Monday and component B on Tuesday. Sure, sometimes I pick up on a difference and double-check to confirm, but I require that double-checking in order to be confident it exists.

    When it comes to something as hard as a Modi vs. ODAC... The only way for me to accurately recall qualities would be to do the immediate A/B comparison. Doing it blind just makes it that much more legitimate.

    Obviously there are matchups that have a significant enough difference that it doesn't matter whether I do a quick comparison or not, but I'd still prefer an immediate A/B to solidify it and avoid tricking myself with placebo.
     
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  5. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    If we are of types. I may just suck at it. Or I'm doing it all wrong. I'm pretty sure Mike Moffett is turning green reading this thread, lol.
     
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    When it came down to it, I used any method I could including quick A/B.
     
  7. Xen

    Xen Friend

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    No, your prior knowledge does not affect the results since that is part of what is being tested in a way. I would argue that people should prepare and do extensive pre-listening, especially for things that are subtle. Pull a naive (in terms of the test, sorry jargon coming all back to me) subject and you are testing just big differences.
     
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  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Then this of course leads to another question: can different people with different amounts of experience, preparation, and practice have different results with these blind tests? What I'm getting at is if random dude "r/dude" cannot perceive a difference between Yggdrasil and ODAC in blind tests (let's not even broach the topic that r/dude would even bother conducting such a test because we all know r/dude prefers to pontificate from his ivory keyboard instead of getting his hands dirty), then does r/dude's personal test result of "not discernable" extend to all other human beings?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    A proper blind test to disapprove the null hypothesis would require conducting the same test on a larger population, preferably with different levels of experience, preparation, practice, etc. Of course one could always subscribe to the alternative hypothesis and put the burden on r/dude to prove that there are no differences, for anyone, any human being.

    Thus this leads to the inevitable conclusion: this is retarded and it is much better to get laid, or if you cannot just laid, just do whatever makes you happy, whether that involves listening to music with an ODAC or Yggdrasil.
     
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  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    IME practice and training do matter. The more exposure I get to various gear, and the more critical listening I do, the more I feel I can better distinguish DACs, amps, and so on by picking out subtle differences. Either that or I've gone more and more crazy with an ever inflating ego.

    On the other hand, I remember reading about a study that showed trained musicians were more easily able to hear slight differences in close pitches as well as better distinguish timing differences. Something like that. That might explain things.
     
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  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Why not both? :headbang:
     
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Perhaps a new SBAF rule: no blind tests or mention of null hypothesis unless you are having sex.
     
  13. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    This makes the most sense to me. It really shouldn't be necessary to qualify that an HD800 sounds different than a PortaPro + EQ. For people who make the claim that everything sounds the same or they can transform anything to anything with PEQ, it's on them to prove their long-reaching hypothesis. And like you said, such claims tend to come from people with the most limited listening experience. Easier to sit behind a keyboard and look at Tyll's or Marv's measurements then try to figure things out with your own ears.

    Hydrogen Audio begone :D
     
  14. Xen

    Xen Friend

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    Equating nearly anything that a human perceives as being uniform for all human would be a bad boo-boo (major fallacy). That is one of the more tiring things I keep reading over at HF. "Well I heard it, therefore it must be true." or "Well I didn't hear it, therefore it must be true." Ug... so egocentric. I find it is very narrow-minded to think that a personal experience is universal. It's really awesome when there is some synchrony, like when the home team makes a huge play.

    Pretty much, humans are a numbers game. X% will be able to do Y with Z% precision and ZZ% accuracy with ALPHA% likelihood to be false. Of course, X% wish to be in the top 0.5% of being able to do Y, whether they can or not.
     
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  15. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    Wow Merv.
    With this crowd that criteria would pretty much kill forum traffic.
    :D

    Please don't apply to other threads.
     
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  16. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    I think it boils down to two questions:

    1) Do humans exist that can reliably tell the difference between two moderately different DACs blindly? (I don't think we have to go off the end of the earth trying to compare very close DACs; it is enough if this can be done between some arbitrary different level of DAC quality. All we really need is one person that can do it.)

    Let's assume that there really are people that can do this, because let's face it, if we didn't think that what would be doing here anyway, right?

    Along with this let's assume there also exist people that cannot blindly A/B these DACs. We know this to be true, just read HA.

    2) So the final question is this - if some people can't blind A/B the difference, what does that mean in terms of the experience. Does this mean that they don't appreciate the better DAC at some level that they just can't differentiate well? Or does it mean that the better qualities are completely lost on an individual that can't do the A/B.

    I think #2 is the bigger question. But I also think that people that can do #1 think it's totally obvious that people can do it, whereas people that are not so good at #1 like to gain some confidence that those #1'ers are really out there. Cuz they think #2 still applies to themselves, as long as #1 is legit.

    If that makes any sense, then I will have a beer. or three.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
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  17. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    People think we're crazy audiophiles. Most of us aren't. I'm normal, I swear. I wouldn't worry about amps/DACs/high-end headphones if there weren't concrete differences in sound. Most of this audiophile stuff is ridiculous to me. I've said this a million times now, but I started on the reductionist, Nwavguy-minion side of the fence. I was convinced everything sounded the same until I started listening.
     
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  18. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Non Voting Friend

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    They're the same price but one has better driver/API support, RCA jacks for easier output to most amps, and no power issues.
     
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  19. lm4der

    lm4der A very good sport - Friend

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    Nah. I still say that most people have bronze ears. The better gear does sound better.
     
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I took a while to consider this. Tonight I'm going back and forth listening to both DACs at a time before making any switches. Going through entire albums without switching. I would say that taking such a test and listening for differences tends to not only take the enjoyment away, but also makes the differences that much smaller. There's a tendency to go myopic looking for the tricks and so forth to identify the DACs from each other. This myopic approach prevents one from seeing the big picture where maybe the sum of the little things add up to something bigger.

    In this more laid back setting, I feel the ODAC is outclassed by the Modi 2 (which again isn't exactly a normal unit.) Less thin tonality, deeper space and better separation, and better quality, tighter, more extended, and more explosive bass.
     
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