Denon D7200 (new flagship)

Discussion in 'Headphones' started by OJneg, Aug 30, 2016.

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  1. Schlappen

    Schlappen Rando

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    Thanks for your reviews !

    Do you think, the Denon D7200 is (in terms of sound) a better headphone, than for example a Fostex TH-X00 Purpleheart or Ebony...?
     
  2. cskippy

    cskippy Creamy warmpoo

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    Well, I had a nice week with the AH-D7200. Thanks to @Hands and others for allowing me to hop on the loaner.

    I'll keep my impressions short and sweet:

    • Initial impressions are a very balanced headphone, a fun take on neutral.
    • Has more sub bass emphasis than mid bass which is a good think IMO.
    • Cymbals lack bite and proper shimmer and are pushed too far back in the mix.
    • Has pretty good depth, it was fun using them for gaming pin pointing enemies through walls.
    • Depending on the song the 1kHz hump shows it's ugly head. I personally grew to dislike it and it became a deal breaker for me.
    • Treble is smooth and sibilance is at a minimum but not HD650 smooth
    • The 1kHz hump makes sort of an ethereal quality to songs and reminds me of the stock pleather pads on HE-6 with the big bump also at 1kHz.
    • They are really good at low level listening compared to open back headphones.
    • I found female vocals to fall back into the mix more than males and could sometimes have a tizz to their voices.
    • They have excellent bass slam! Listening to Pendulum and I was rocking out.
    • They work well with OTL amps like Zana Deux but sound more coherent on a good SS amp such as Jot, which really brings out the dynamic potential.
    • Dip at 300Hz can be heard and makes the 1KHz hump more apparent
    • I personally had issues with my tinnitus getting aggravated, probably the ringing at 2kHz
    • These are an excellent headphone but for the money I would take a modded TH-X00.
    Measurements:

    Closest to how I hear them, downward tilt, mostly smooth but there are some minor peaks and dips
    [​IMG]

    Alternate positioning
    [​IMG]
    Right side distortion
    [​IMG]

    R CSD
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    Wow this is all really excellent info...
    Thanks for the measurements,
    I have also noted that this 300 Hertz dip is most difficult to eliminate when modding.

    Since I will be getting the same loaner unit next it will be great to compare measurements.
     
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  4. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    Ok,
    I have the Dennon 7200 loaner now...

    my FR measurements do not show some of those dips which may actually not be dips but resonant peaks ,
    Visible in the CSD plots and masquerading as dips in the FR response.
    Marvey explained this phenomena in the thread called "CSDs & what they tell us":
    http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/csds-and-what-they-tell-us.65/

    So my FR looks fairly different,
    and also is showing a rather larger bass response, which I hear.

    These headphones sound really nice euphoric mid-range with really good bass in stock form,
    Only issue is the downward sloping sound from bass to upper spectrum, so there is less trebles.

    I will post some pics soon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  5. AllanMarcus

    AllanMarcus Friend

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    Here are my impressions of the D7200 loaner.

    My comparison is to a stock Fostex TH900. Clearly the 900 has more treble energy, which can sound like detail. Still, I feel the TH900 resolves better based on what I hear on the low end and the mid. The D7200 is so rolled off on the treble (HD650 folks might like it), it's hard to determine if can resolve treble.

    On the bass and mid, it just sounds a little muffled compared to the TH900. drum whacks and thumps don't have the crisp impact. The rolled off treble causes me to miss the energy the comes with drums and even a bass guitar.

    In the sub-bass department, both cans deliver. In the organ opening of Mozart Ave Verum (Choir of the Church of the Blessed Sacrament, Dr. Chesky's Sensational, Fantastic, and Simply Amazing Binaural Sound Show), I can feed the organ in my chest and down to my taint (TMI? - when was the headphone review that referred to that?!). It's the choir where the 7200 falls down. The voices of the choir sound veiled to me, including the echo and reverberations of the their singing. In other music, like Somewhere Over the Rainbow, Israel Kamakawiwo'ole, his breathing is much easier to hear with the TH900.

    The stage is also smaller and more laid back with the 7200 than with the 900.

    I know many think the TH900 is too hot on top. I ameliorate that with MrSpeakers doggie treats (sadly, no longer available and not used for these impressions ). I also use Brainwavez hybrid angled pads, which feels more comfortable to me.

    Final thoughts on the D7200. Very nice looking. Love the wood look with the silver bands. Very comfortable. Looks like it would be easy to build a cable for it.

    From what I remember of the various MassDrop THx00's I heard at the Albuquerque meet, the Denon is probably has tighter bass. I really didn't like the THx00 relative to the TH900. There were some Dakoni pads that really helped the THx00, so I do not doubt Maxx134's assertion about pad rolling.

    Well, I decided to try some ZMF cowhide pads, Bass expanded a bit, and tightened a bit. Mids were lush, but treble still too rolled off me. Too boring for me.

    If you prefer warmer cans that are still a little fun, and deep sub-bass, these might be for you. If you think the HD650 sounds veiled, even modded, then I don't think you would like the D7200.

    My personal word cloud for the D7200: bass. comfort, polite.

    Oh, chain for these impressions. Sony UDA-1 DAC into a MK2 with LSST tubes.
     
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  6. zolkis

    zolkis Acquaintance

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    I had similar impressions with the D7200 vs TH900. However, two points:
    - the D7200 measures much better, and is less sensitive, so it's harder to compare, it will sound flat and boring in direct short comparison. One needs to use them for longer periods and then focus on the listening experience.
    - the D7200 sound changes a lot with pads.

    Try to compare to the TH900 using the same (TH900 or other) pads - just don't use the stock Denon pads.
    With the same pads, bass extension is on par with the TH900, while mids and treble are better, and the presentation is more linear. With a big caveat: no matter what pads, too much mids in the 1-2K region (appears as a ridge on the CSD), it sounds a bit honky to say it (especially with piano), I could tame it by more cups damping (with Twaron Angelhair), it also measures better, but still doesn't sound completely to my liking. If I listen to the D7200 without pads, it sounds really honky. That is where we start from. Denon made a pretty good overall package out of that, but it seems it was driven mainly by measurements and missed the next level when (maybe slightly worse, but still good measurements pair with good sound). Nevertheless, the D7200 still competes favorably in its price range.

    In comparison, the TH900 sounds pretty okay without pads, and downright surprisingly good without cups (except for the treble). It's hard to fix the TH900 treble, but not impossible. In turn, I could not fix its two deep notches at 5-600 Hz and 2KHz, i.e. the colored sound. Still looking for a TH900 alternative - if I can fix the D7200 midrange, there it is, otherwise it will go to someone less sensitive to midrange and I will continuel looking for alternatives (neither TX00 did it either, I've had all of them). The modded TH900 still sounds better than each of its epigones (in stock or modded form). One caveat: the treble needs to be fixed. Nothing is perfect.
     
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  7. zolkis

    zolkis Acquaintance

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    I've had both, and depends on your preference. The TX00 will have bigger bass and sound stage, and more treble. However, the D7200 stock pads are not optimal. With the same pads IMHO the D7200 sound better, but again, it's subjective. I exchanged my TX00 Ebony to a D7200 and both parties were happy :).
     
  8. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I do believe very strongly that the Denon 7200 has the best driver of all these types headphones , because of the both the circumference of its voice coil and the better looking magnet/motor structure, and finally the (Denon stated) stiffer type of what is essentially still some type of biocellulous driver...
    Yet I believe their tunning is off and based on high pitch music.

    No amount of modding can ever boost the 7200 trebles without muting and loosing bass and dynamics.
    Yet I have accomplished this by modding the driver itself.

    As far as I know, no one has attempted this.
    Unfortunately it's not a method I can just easily post for the masses.

    I have boosted both the driver performance and trebles,
    with what a call a vortex mod,
    Which can be (not easy) reversed.

    I am trying to figure out a way to get it out there, but so far it looks like it may have to be a custom service due to special ordered and installed parts.
    Costs were low with exception of pads.
    I use both ORI pads,
    and Ether Electrostatic pads (with silicone gaskets for bass seal) .

    Here is a pic of Frequency Response of both stock unit (in red) and my mod with ORI pads:
    [​IMG]

    Although my measurement rig shows both as having more bass than other measurement rigs.
    The resonance issue has been reduced greatly and I had a period were I was unsatisfied with a more linear response,
    so went back to drawing board for retaining that Denon bass.

    Life is busy for me as a newlywed (10mo), but will post pics in measurement section soon.

    I want to try this on an THX00 next,
    as I already had success with the smaller Denon MM400 which I did not get around to posting yet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  9. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I was very saddened to see the interior of the purpleheart once I opened it.
    The driver has a fairly weak/small magnet/motor structure encased in plastic.
    :(
    The cup itself is actually impressive though, dense, and has more interior space inside than the Denon.

    The Denon still looks to have the best driver from internal appearance from those I have tried including Eikon..
    Yet sadly stock sound is not ideal on any of them.
    Eikon gets close in ideal signature, but not surpass resolution of Denon or Foxtex th900.
     
  10. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    ^ Not sure what's to be expected of a "budget" pair of cans, though. Using a TOTL driver array for the X00 would have been overkill, perhaps, and could have cannibalised TH-900 sales maybe.

    Having said that, I AM very curious about slapping better biodynas on my X00 EBs. Provided the drivers all have similar tuning and FR is largely dependent on enclosure and whatnot, having cans with TH900 clarity and resolution but x00 EB FR would be fucking awesome.
     
  11. zolkis

    zolkis Acquaintance

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    FWIW I have tried the TH900 with the mahogany and ebony cups and then it sounded more damped. I could see why people would prefer the ebony cups, but IMHO the Urushi caups sounded more open and more musical even if slightly more colored. Measurements were almost the same.

    I suggest trying different cups on the TH900. The D7200 driver and TH900 driver are very close in clarity, bass extension etc. I am tempted to try the D7200 drivers in the TH900 enclosure and vice versa, but the drivers are glued in. No way I will get them out. The Denon enclosure seems to get the 500 Hz region right, but it's lighter on deep bass and seems to emphasize midrange - these would match well to the TH900 drivers, and conversely. I think the TH900 housing with the D7200 drivers would sound like an upgraded D7000, with less bass bloom and less treble.
     
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  12. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Right, I've got to try and get my hands on TH-900 drivers. Thanking for the impressions, very interesting findings!
     
  13. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I agree and realize the TH-X00 series are practically the highest price/performance ratio closed cans.
    I still like my purpleheart and they are great units to mod.
     
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  14. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I compared both today and my TH-X00 does have a bit more Soundstage...

    The fact that the Denon has more forward mids, also adds to the deeper yet closer Soundstage of the Denon.

    I am very impressed with the TH-X00 Soundstage and potential.
    Unfortunately it has similar colored lower spectrum & resonance due to the wooden cups.
    In stock for the TH-X00 it is worse than Denon.

    Upon modding both for more clarity ,
    I have to say the TH-X00 became very good.
    The 7200 still edges out the TH-X00 in a bit more focus or involvement,
    but the TH-X00 more neutral mids and deeper cups highlights the larger Soundstage..
    Im going over to TH-X00 thread to post some results.
     
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  15. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    I was wrong.
    The outer plastic casing is actually not cheap but a solid composite,
    and the magnet/motor structure is of same or better Tesla rating than that of the TH600 series at 1tesla.

    In my testing of the driver it seems very dynamic as well.
    Also the TH-X00 cup depth is about 12mm more deeper than the 7200,
    and that makes a noticeable difference (benefit) for Soundstage.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  16. Camper1995

    Camper1995 Rando

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    @Maxx134
    Hello, so I recently bought the D7200 and I'm enjoying it very much, I've been reading everything about it here and on HeadFi and I'll get straight to the case: What kind of mods would you suggest to make the mids (especially vocals) less hot / spicy? Sometimes they tend to sound a little harsh and sibilant.

    I do have experience with modding the THX00 a lot as well as other headphones, but these pads on the D7200 really mix things up especially because of how they're perforated from the inside.
    I did make a perforated attenuation ring from a 1.5mm paper for the 7200 stock pads and placed a 1mm thick felt ring over the stock dampening foam around the drivers but it's still not really perfect. Bass gets really punchy and you do calm the vocals decently, but it also loses the resolution that makes them fantastic. Currently I own Dekoni X00, Dekoni Th900, Brainwavz and Ori pads, but I still find the stock Denon pads to work the best. Every other pad I own makes them quite dark sounding compared to stock.

    If you could point me in the right direction or explain the process exactly that would be fantastic, I do not own a measurement rig so I only judge the mods I do to them by my ear.

    Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  17. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    Damping the center taped hole behind driver to the wood should help.
    It will give some control the mids and also dampen the whole lower range which has a delectable effect on bass clarity.
    I myself use a foam type behind driver.

    The Denon have an extra bit or bite of leading edge detail, but I am finding the Fostex driver to have a bit more natural sound and believe it is result of the diaphram material.

    I like both but for now I am disappointed at the potential lost from:
    1- the 7200 smaller /more shallow cup
    2- sh*tty pads
    3- lowered trebles

    I have solved 2 & 3, but the shallow cup forever limits the headphones soundstage potential and resonance elimination.
    I am considering holding out for a larger cup in future.
    Meanwhile the THX00 PurpleHeart is my current project .
     
  18. Camper1995

    Camper1995 Rando

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    Ahh! Of course, makes sense. Thanks for the tip, I just cut out a circle from some thin acoustic foam I got from ebay few months ago and voila, the vocals are
    suddenly not harsh anymore ;) Really enjoyable now, thanks![​IMG]
    Also I honestly love the stock pads for some reason, they fit my (smaller) ears perfectly, as well as the treble, the X00 treble was too much for me. So glad I purchased the D7200, these have some serious potential for me.
     
  19. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    This is true and last thing for me to work on.

    Glad I could help.
     
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  20. MiniMax

    MiniMax Rando

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    The last years I used a Denon AH-D2000. Now I am looking for a real closed alternative (which the Denon never was). Is the new 7200 more closed than the old Denons or just the same? Are the other Fostex headphones better in this regard?
     

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