Get with the fracking spirit or there will be no For Sale Forum

@shipsupt

It was always my intention to reply at length. I think very ill of "drive by disliking."

Your post deserves a thoughtful response, but I'm at work right now. The short version is that I feel empathy toward you regarding the stresses that come with the job, but I strongly object to the threat. Regardless, the discussion should be about the causes of the problem and about how to solve it. I'll update this post with a full account later.

 

haha, I felt sort-of-told-off when I read it, even though, not being in USA and not being much of an audio buyer these days anyway, I am unlikely to buy or sell gear here. But I also felt that, if it needed to be said, it was said, and well said*. I didn't feel any threat, though: just this is how we want it to be. And those aims seem entirely laudable.


*And that it would probably be a good idea to make it read-only.

 

I don't know what the precise problem is this time, so I'm going to have to make a fairly educated guess about the general causes. It's the best I can do.

There's a damn good reason we come here to SBAF. It sure as hell isn’t the sales. We're friends. I think the world of a number of you, whether you know it or not, whatever our disagreements. Some of my posts over the years have had a critical dimension, but it's always been with intention of improving our collective experience or conserving something good about our community.

About the threat, no one could tell if that was in jest or not. You sounded fit to be tied. And, whatever's going on, I don't doubt that you have every right to be. I appreciate it that you’ve graciously accepted this serious responsibility, and I'm sorry you have to deal with the occasional creep or shitheel. But it's plain dumb to threaten to take away something that everyone wants, as opposed to simply punishing the offending party. Imagine if the president of United States said, "That's it! One more botched military raid, and we're not gonna have a military anymore." You know what clowns we'd look like if we couldn't even keep a friendly marketplace going. Moreover, the bad apples don't care if it gets shut down anyway or else they would treat it right. So you'd be punishing only the good people.

As everyone knows, the For Sale forum was set up wrong from the start. It was open to everyone and it can still be seen by everyone. The reasoning is preposterous, especially considering all the bad side effects. Related to that, friend status or contributor status—access—was distributed unrestricted, so even when restrictions were imposed it was too late. Periodically, Ravi and OJ would have to act the heavy just to clean up the mess. It's a wonder the whole site isn't in much worse shape.

I participate in forums for other hobbies where your first attempt to post automatically redirects you to the Intro thread. If you can't be bothered to even introduce yourself, chances are pretty high that you're going to be a negative influence. Same thing with starting a new thread if you're a new member: you should be asked if perhaps you meant to post in the Advice thread.

It's time to set the For Sale forum aright—not shut it down. Just as it's time to set the site aright regarding new members. Please let me know if there’s anything I can do to help besides mouthing off.

 

As a fairly new SBAF member: I've sold several items over the last year that were surplus to my needs (replaced by newer/fancier gear) on a couple of other forums successfully, at prices ranging from $XX to $XXXX. I looked briefly at SBAF's "For Sale," but I couldn't figure out how I could quality to post the items there. I like SBAF's information quality and spirit, but "For Sale" seems a bit too supercilious for my taste.

 

@earnmyturns , I disagree. There is no way I could have afforded my equipment if I didn't buy it from here, most of all from people I could trust.

EDIT: tired, like everyone else... I don't think the For Sale section is supercilious at all.

 

Well we all have different takes on things but knowing dozens of people on here I feel a high degree of confidence buying and selling from my friends.

I fully support the spirit of @shipsupt post, and with @Claritas as well. I felt like the title (ie the threat) was not actually intended as a threat because a few bad eggs shouldn't shut down a useful part of the site, sort of like throwing the baby out with the bath water or throwing it under the bus. Or maybe that was wishful thinking since I don't want this part of the forum shut down. I like claritas' suggestion of finding solutions rather than killing it.

 

One thing I've seen recently is a rando joining, and their first post on the site is just an offer to buy something (which was an offer below listed price to boot). It's enough of a faux pas that this was met with a small barrage of dislikes, and no (public) response from the seller. A few people definitely don't think that sort of behaviour is okay here, but I have no idea whether that's even close to being a majority opinion.

The information about prices is useful public information. But since a fair bit of the time things get changed hands here at damn near charity prices, people could distinguish better between "This is what I'm selling to other valued forum members that I have a good trusting relationship with" and "this is what I would sell to Joe-Blow on the street/The screeching Randos", because I wouldn't be shocked if SBAF is just turning up hits on Google when people search "X for Sale" and see a really low price.

Because there are quite a few listings that have Friends/Contributor Discount/Only/First Dibs (and at some of the prices, first dibs is essentially Friends/Contributors only because they get sold so quickly). Not saying it's wrong, just an observation that there are quite often two pricing tiers here.

At the very least it might help the sellers not get so many tire kickers.

It makes me sorta sad to hear about this place being an issue, because again, I've seen some things get sold here for pretty much charity prices. I wouldn't expect everybody to be able or willing to sell their stuff for super low prices, I know I certainly wouldn't for my newer stuff. But I'm still trying to help out other people when I can, even if it means I end up objectively losing money in some way.

For the other part which is friends being not quite so friendly to each-other, beyond the omnipresent "Don't be a dick" rule, one piece of personal advice that I was given in my Negotiations class when dealing with buying stuff off friends/family because I'm looking at getting some form of transportation in my future, but I don't want to drive a rift between any of my friends or family over a f'ing car (which has literally happened in my family before).

You ask the seller to state the lowest price that they would be happy to sell something at. It either gets bought, or not, or if it's right on the cusp then you just straight up ask if you can think about it for a bit (but will still pay at that price). And you tell them that too; you'll either be able to meet this price, or not, and you're not gonna try to pull a fast one on them in any way.

No negotiation from that price, no coming back three days later hoping they'll budge, or offering the thing with a different lowest price because you were hoping they'd change their mind and meet your first price. The buyer either takes it or leaves it. It still functions on a system of trust, but it's a lot better because there's no inherent 'deal' making involved.

The seller is happy with the price they state to begin with, and the buyer only buys if they're okay with it as well.

 

I would cycle back to an idea that was proposed in the past as well as here:

In short, Randos, aka people with little understanding of the ways of the land, should have some automatic restrictions embedded:
- first post must be in the Intro thread
- can't post at all in FS thread unless you're Acquaintance level and have Contributor / Friend status. You shouldn't be able to barge your way into this thread, or buy your way into it.
- can't start thread unless you're Acquaintance level

Other automatic restrictions can be thought of, if useful, but a few basic ones should help keep noise in check, tempers calm, and steer unsuspecting randos clear of the beehive...

 

Damn good points, @Claritas*. There is only one reason I stick around here. I don't have nearly enough active interest in Audio these days to support daily interaction on an audio-specific site, but the community is addictive. And, of course, if I do want audio information, then I'll get it here. And I'm only a "friend" because I was lucky enough to discover Changstar in time: I did not get to know the people here through HF or other sites. But getting to know them is a happy experience.

I agree with you (and I think I posted) that the sales section should have been restricted right from the start. But... we are where we are:the site is growing, and even the number of Friends is expanding. I still think the opening post expresses admirable ideals to be striven for. Whether they remain attainable or not is another thing.

I suppose I interpreted the or else aspect of the thread in the context of parental exasperation: If you don't eat that I'm never going to feed you again. Ever. One would hope that it would never actually come to that. But some poor bastard has to moderate the section.


*and others. (crossposted)

 

Without cluttering up the thread too much, and echoing @Claritas on the "Let me know if I can do more than just talk", I don't think it'd be a horrible decision. Far from it. On a gaming forum I used to help moderate we had a key/discount giveaway section (for steam keys, steam discounts for games, spare games in humble bundles you had no intention of ever playing, etc), and some intentionally vague requirements on what members had to do in order to see inside it. Iirc it was something like 35 total posts and at least a 2-1 upvote to downvote ratio, and spammers were pretty easily noticed before they became an issue and just flagged against access. So that sounds pretty similar to the idea you're mentioning, but with different titles/requirements, except with the necessary visibility differences (because you can show prices but not let people buy).

It never became a huge issue on its own because we were a pretty small community, and we only had a handful of incidents where it seemed like people were just there for the free stuff. 55 posts in two days and none for the three days after they got access but they're active every 45 minutes? That's a paddlin'.

The thing I'm hung up over mentally is that PM's will still happen. The one-off tire kicking messages with no follow up will still occur, unless PM's became a privileged function, which I think would also cause some other unintended issues, etc.

 

It's kind of funny you guys assume randos are the main problem. There's at least two members with friend status (or status higher than rando) that have custom titles denoting less than stellar sales interactions. When I read shipsupt's post it sounds like the problems are not solely randos, but also members who should know better and treat each other respectfully. If you're dealing with randos there is more risk involved and you should act accordingly or not all.

One of the reasons I joined this forum was to buy some second hand gear. I'm pretty broke and headphone prices in Canada generally suck. I'd like to continue to have the opportunity to purchase on this forum and have no problem paying a premium because I'm rando.

It's sad that shipsupt needs to say any of these things at all. Be decent human beings, it's that simple.

 

Though some of us will also haggle as if our lives depended on it, with no ill intent meant, even if it was already a good deal to start with. For myself, I'll partially blame culture and habit on this one.

The hiccup is that sometimes I'll start this *expecting* the other person to reciprocate the banter and counteroffer or call me a fishmonger, but they might just dismiss me completely or be offended.

 

I've had good experiences buying and selling here, but I support making the FS forum friend only. Not that anyone cares.

 

Can confirm @Armaegis drives a hard bargain.

 

I'll add that way too much time and energy has been spent this week in this and other threads worrying about free market consensual transactions re: audio gear between unrelated parties. The rant above conflates smooth transactions with price which is misguided.

The arguments in the rant are impossible to reconcile because both parties have competing interests. If a seller sells something for what they paid, they aren't a friend, but if they sell it for $1 less than they paid, they are. That's nonsense. If a buyer buys gear priced well below market average (i.e., at a Friend discount), then it's impossible for the buyer to comply with the spirit of the rant because they aren't putting the interest of the seller first by offering more. And so on and so forth.

The more embroiled we get in price control, the worse the For Sale forum will get and the more SBAF's potential liability increases (especially with our scanty terms of use). Some people can afford to take a hit and will sell gear at a (sometimes quite substantial) loss. That's their prerogative. Others may sell for what they paid. That's their prerogative. If it's a good deal, the market dictates someone will buy it (even if it's being "flipped," but that's a discussion for another day). I think we can trust our community to continue to (1) police egregious "flippers" and (2) use the negative feedback thread for keeping track of people to avoid.

 

I am not saying that this has anything to do with some problem people in the For Sale Forum, maybe it could.

I have known and have been good friends with people that have a character flaw when it comes to anything to do with money. None of them are having conventional money problems, actually they are doing fine money-wise. They have an obsession with money. They always have to come out on top of any deal they are involved in. They do not seem to even be aware of this. It is like they have a blind spot and feel totally justified with whatever they think and say, in these situations.

They can be good people in every other respect. When it comes to money, everything is different. The thing I do is have no significant money dealings with them once I discover that they have this quality.

If there are some people like this in the For Sale Forum, that would be a messy problem to solve. One wouldn't know until the damage is done. And with the two sides to a story thing, it would mean having to wait until a pattern is clear. Some problems don't have a good solution.