Putin's War With Ukraine (and democracy, freedom, self-determination, etc.)

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Feb 25, 2022.

  1. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Just scanned this thread.
    Going to Warsaw in 10 days where Ukrainian refugees, lots and lots of them, are the coming every day and most of them are getting help. I have two young women with children in my apartment in Warsaw, they came three weeks ago and children are already going to school. Fathers are in the army.
    In Poland no one has illusions who is the aggressor, who is Putin, and that Europe will not be safe until he is dead. Once the war started, Putin is doing the killing of innocent people, that what maters.

    In the US extremely smooth transition of MSNBC, CNN, NYT from hating Trump to hating Putin, warmongering, and calling for actions that must result in all out war, is a clear example that the American media has indeed become the real enemy of the people. All the people.
    Because no one in Poland, Baltic Republics etc. wants the war. Of course they are all involved in helping the refugees and sending military aid to Ukrainians.
    But they consider NATO to be a defensive pact, serious about article 5, not a bunch of crooked politicians that could be pushed into a war by the media.
    Consider that Blinken even tried to trick the Polish government into flying old Russian jets to Ukraine, without consulting it with Pentagon.
    Do not believe anything you hear from the American media about this war. Check it.
    Yes there is war there, people are fighting and dying, but do not get tricked into the war pornography, the lies about "ghost of Kiev", Snake Island, tens of thousands of civilian casualties etc..It may happen though.
    And into yelling treason when someone is asking questions about if this war could be avoided, or why the dangerous pathogens, those that Victoria Nulan is so concerned about, were not destroyed even though the US intelligence was right about Putin's timing and intentions.
    Ukraine needs weapons and humanitarian aid, Western Europe is waking up understanding that their dumb delusions about energy made them vulnerable and impotent. But no one there is interested what MSNBC "experts" think about it.
    But of course everyone is looking to the US for leadership. And what they see? Biden 79, Harris (age does not matter), Pelosi (81), memories of Kabul, the media talking trash and calling for war.
     
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  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    America media actually not that bad. CNN at worst does human interest stories that tug at heartstrings, but reporting has been pretty careful: postage stamp of Snake Island, 1 civilian died and 5 injured at shot down Russian missile that hit apartment (not 5000 dead), theatre marked with "дети" got bombed and status of people in the bomb shelter unknown, Biden calling Putin "war criminal" and Russia responding with "irresponsible", etc. I left CNN on all night last night (too lazy to get up and find hotel remote) so I can attest.

    CNN has been better since Zucker got canned as the result of the Cuomo fiasco. Sky News (UK) has actually been reporting on the more spectacular aspects, the military victories of Ukraine, the war porn. MSNBC doesn't seem to cover the war as much as GOP/Trump "Putin-Wing" (MSNBC seems to be stuck).

    No one is doing this. I've been asking questions about NATO expansion and perceived threat from Russia's POV since 2004. I don't see anyone yelling treason at me.

    However, I'm sure gonna yell treason if someone flat out claims that Biden / White House / Swamp wanted this war, or parrots Kremlin lies (many times straw/hollow man arguments to misdirect), or "smartly" observes that somehow Putin isn't evil (or that his evil is merely relative and depends upon your point of view). Most Russians or Belorussians with an IQ over 105 or of the entrepreneuring type want to get the hell outta there (found work has some IT stuff farmed out there, so been talking with a few peeps - it's kinda fucked there right now).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  3. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Well stated. I'd give you 3 thumbs up if I could. This is a clever comment I read today:

    "Russia has state-run media. America is a media-run state"

    A lot of truth in it, though I think the MSM in America is really just the lazy patsy of the liberal hegemony - they know it's what their customers (i.e. the mostly woke corporations who advertise on them) want.

    I watched a bit of press corps grilling the white house over and over (and over and over) why Biden is not doing more, sending weapons, sending jets, making war on Russia (i.e. establishing a "no fly zone"). I thought "who are these people, and what happened to the real journalists??". Well, they were replaced by the MSM zombie's because there's more money in such things. They report the truth only when it's easy and uncomplicated, and war is neither.

    The "populist" core that elected Trump too easily gets suckered in by the seemingly macho and righteous neo-conservative right/left, but this time I don't think it's going to last that long. The fundamentals of the Deplorables and the Bitter Clingers are still the same and only getting worse (inflation, etc.). Too many Americans know someone who was involved in the Crusade in the middle east, and have a clue about its failure and the damage it does.

    Zelensky is doing his best trying to tie our fate in with "the fate of us is the fate of Europe and the fate of all!!", but that's so thin I don't think even the Crusaders are going to be able to sell it for more than a few weeks...about the time it will take the MSM to realize their losing eyeballs and move on to the next thing...maybe Antarctica or something...
     
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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    He's trying, not that doesn't seem to be working. WW3, no thanks. However, here are some Javelins and a million bullets for ya.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Reporters asking dumb emotionally charged questions where the answers are obvious (but not necessarily obvious to regular people) to the prez - this has been around as long as I can remember, which is back to ABC World News Tonight with Peter Jennings, Frank Reynolds, Sam Donaldson, and Max Robinson.

    TBH, I'm more embarrassed at our Senators, 70% of whom look like alternate retconned versions of Palpatine, hunched back, dropping shoulders, lifetimes of wealth acquired via insider-trading, and all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  6. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    If I was the Russian head of state 'who shall not be named', I would be telling the US publicly and privately that my navy will be sinking your merchant vessels and my airforce will be shooting your cargo transports that carry such things out of the sky...just saying...not that Russia would be particularly good at that because their military doctrine is such that they don't "project power" well at all, the irony of the narrative going on and on about the threat of a new Russian world empire notwithstanding.

    @wormcycle , do you speak Ukrainian? My church channels are telling us to expect refugees in the next 3-6 months so there's a real chance I will be hosting some refugees...my wife is stressed as she's more of an introvert/private person than I am.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    He actually did in his own cryptic way. You know the routine. The next day, that CIA training / arms staging facility on the border next to Poland got exploded by many many Russian cruise missiles. Hundreds injured, dozens dead. It was mentioned, fully reported, but news rapidly de-emphasized by next day. Viewers hate stories like this. More interesting to report on the plight of the theatre / bomb-shelter marked "kids" as we do not know about the status of the children (at least of last evening).

    News has always been news. William Hurt? RIP. Broadcast News. And that was 1987. We just have more sources of news today. It's kind of like how the Olympics with NBC and Bob Costas sucks balls if you want to watch full basketball games that don't involve the USA or weirdo sports like badminton with amazing athletes. Gotta hit the other channels.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2022
  8. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    It was explicit. RUS Foreign Minister said NATO arms were 'legitimate targets.' Missiles hit west Ukraine a day later.

    It is possible to be morally right and also dead.
     
  9. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    No I do not, people who are staying in my place speak Polish a bit, but one of two women speaks fluent English. We talked on the phone. A lot of younger people do. English is extremely popular in former USSR orbit countries, so maybe you would not have to learn Ukrainian :).
    It is interesting what's going to happen next. Poland is a host to a lot of Ukrainians who came to work, before the war there was at least one million,,but they were mostly men 20-50. They integrate extremely well, are hard working, and most learned Polish pretty well. But now it is 1.5 mln mostly women and children. Men had to stay and fight And Ukrainian men from Canada and Poland are traveling in opposite direction, there is entire Canadian unit in Ukrainian army. Those are tough and motivated people.
    If the war ends without too much additional devastation I would expect most of the refugees would want to go back. They were teachers, business owners etc..The kids staying now in my apartment are going to school where they learn in Ukrainian, with Ukrainian teachers. Some in churches, some other is existing schools if there is room. No books I imagine but at least it feel like a normal life. Have no idea how it happened so quickly.
     
  10. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    Anyone have any clue how Putin shapes anarrative that he's liberating Ukraine from Nazi's when at the sight of him all the Ukrainian refugees ran to western countries? o_O
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Watching Anderson Cooper on CNN right now. Don't worry, I watch and read everything, including the New York Daily News, Al Jazeera, BBC, Sun, Guardian, RT, WSJ, NYT (when I can get through paywall), SCMP, China Daily, etc. Cooper and CNN news ticker said / indicated "726 civilians killed" with two dozen children. Not hearing any lies of thousands.

    I guess you are correct. Only 726. We shouldn't be alarmed since it's only 726 civilians deaths instead of thousands (the supposed lie from CNN, MSNBC, NYT, etc.)

    I did a search on Ghost of Kyiv. Didn't find anything on CNN. I thought I remember reading something about this being bullshit while being a good tool to lift morale on WSJ. TBH, I first learned about of the Ghost of Kyiv from my son, who probably saw it on TikTok. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. It's a heart-warming feel-good urban-legend. I did see a funny TikTok video in the Top Gun style which presented Ghost of Kyiv ending with a "confirmed by CNN source: Trust me bro". Perhaps this is what you are referring to?

    Snake Island? That's one of the best f'ing postage stamps ever! A great piece of propaganda.
    upload_2022-3-17_17-53-43.png

    You know why I love this? It's because today I had to deal yet again with more Putin bullshit. Ever heard of SEO or link poisoning. A provider of plugs-ins for Adobe AFX got their download links changed pointing to malware. Seriously, f**k that guy. While I don't see any media lies, I'm starting to believe that we need fight Putin using the very methods that he employs.

    Right now, the only lies (OK, let's call them straw man arguments at best and Kremlin misinformation at worst) I hear are those that tell us the American media lies to us. Seriously, whether the Ghost of Kyiv is true or not, it doesn't change the fact that there is a serious humanitarian disaster (is the 3M refugees a lie too?) going on that will not stop until Putin poisons or puts Zelenskky into a gulag (as he has with all his enemies) and Russia lords over a demilitarized Ukraine. Biden, the Swamp, NATO, Shell, Raytheon have nothing to do with this anymore.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 21, 2022
  12. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    I don't know what or if any peace agreement between Ukraine and Russia would look like. So far as I know we (NATO/US/free world) are not and should not be involved in that.

    I am pretty sure though that any "ending" to this where Putin thinks he will keep Ukraine means he will get to keep his now-Soviet-era economy too. Putin thinks we will get bored and forget eventually, but I don't think that is going to happen this time around, we saw how that worked (not) last time. This time Russia is going to remain toxic for a long time to come.
     
  13. DigMe

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    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754
     
  14. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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  15. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    That's obvious I am not talking about discussion between reasonable people. have you talked to Mitt Romney?
     
  16. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    3 months off for wormcycle for propagating the GRU-fueled demonization of US news outlets. Was tempted to make it 6 or Perma per the request of multiple staff members but I'll keep it to 3 for now.
     
  17. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Whatever comes out of this situation, the damage will be enormous.

    Look back in time:
    1853 - Crimean War
    1917 - Russian Revolution overturns the old Tsar.
    1921 - The Territory known as the land around Kiev is confronted with a choice: join Lenin & Co. or get it together and become a unified state.
    1921 - Lenin & Co. incorporate the Kiev region and take control over the Black Sea region.
    1921 to 1991 - The Soviet Union has control and Stalin did his thing.
    1991 to now - Ukraine became its own unified state but Russia keeps meddling.

    I do not trust Putin, the EU or the Nato or any media (Dutch, Western or other) in this context. All you can do is make a choice: support the Ukrainians and hope they win or expect Putin to get his way.

    If Putin gets his way, terrible things are going to happen but moreover he will control more trade routes over the Eurasian continent a.k.a. the Silk Road. Control the trade routes, control the wealth of your neighbours: friends or foes.

    The more you dig into the history of certain topics, the more you realise that old Europe is still in conflict with itself and its legacy. Old Europe and Tsarist Russia used to be awkward neighbours. They still are.

    I hate that I realise all this and I am still almost powerless. I have bills to pay and arrangements to make for better days...
     
  18. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    I also feel powerless. I learned about nuclear weapons 28 years ago and there hasn't been a day since I haven't looked up at the sky.

    I pray that we have a miracle and make it through this.
     
  19. james444

    james444 Mad IEM modding wizard level 99

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    The least one can do as a European is point people to the European External Action Service’s EUvsDisinfo platform:

    https://euvsdisinfo.eu/

    Their fact-checking is pretty solid and deserves wider attention. Still too much regurgitating of Russian disinfo-shit out there.
     
  20. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    I am old enough to remember drills in elementary school where we had to get under our desks (as if that would help). Often wonder how much of my fatalistic/nihilistic attitudes came from growing up in such a milieu.
     

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