Streamers in 2023 - Discussion, Impressions, etc

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by rhythmdevils, Feb 9, 2023.

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  1. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    Just received an Orchard Audio PecanPi+ with the new akm4499exeq chip and I'm using it as just a dac with the built in volume control and it's sounding great.. haven't tried it with volumio or ropieee yet. Seems great as a DAC
     
  2. Metro

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    Zen uses Volumio, so it was probably the exact same issue.
     
  3. Justrukin

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    Yep, I cannot understand how they get away with charging for this Volumio software. It was simply an ugly experience for me. Throw the streamer through the window experience. Thank God for RoPieeeXL. ;-)
     
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  4. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    I used Volumio back when it was free for my first digital audio setups, and I ran away as quickly as I could, some of the buggiest software I ever used. Even Roon, which has its problems and complications, is way more stable. Developers seemed more interested in new features and paid models than on reliability. Ropieee is the opposite, simple, robust, very well supported. That's why I supported it with $$ when I had Ropieee-based streamers.
     
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  5. Vansen

    Vansen Gear Master (retiring)

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    I certainly agree with @earnmyturns regarding RoPieee. I’ve been using it since 2018 across three streamers and it’s probably the most stable software experience I have had in the past five years across any product category. I’ve never had a single issue no matter what weird stuff I do.
     
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  6. zottel

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    @luckybaer asked in a profile post if a USB cable from a PC to a DDC could have an impact on audio quality if we assumed that it has an impact from a PC to a DAC. I wrote some stuff there, but I thought I'd give a more thorough overview here as far as I understand the matter, as I think it fits into this thread.

    Short answer: No, I don't think it would have an impact, even if it had an impact for a DAC.

    Long answer:

    Theoretically, a digital signal of ones and zeros that is sent over a cable is a square wave: E.g., 1V for a 1, 0V for 0, in quick succession. (It's not 1V in reality, this is just an example.)

    In reality, there is no such thing as a perfect square wave. The transition from 0 to 1 is always a slope, and due to external and internal influences, the signal will never be completely flat when it stays at one of the values. Above a certain threshold, like 0.5V in this example, the signal is counted as a 1, below it is counted as a 0. (BTW, this is the beauty of digital transmission vs. analog transmission: Those wobbles don't count in the digital domain, they are filtered away, even if they are quite strong.)

    Every cable in any normal household surroundings is always subject to induction, i.e. electromagnetic waves that are always around us lead to currents in the wire. This is the noise that is introduced in the cable. It has an effect on the signal, i.e. it constantly makes it stronger and weaker and stronger and weaker etc.

    In a properly shielded cable, this effect can be neglected, because it is much smaller than the signal itself. In a purely digital environment and under normal circumstances, it is no problem whatsoever, the digital data can be reconstructed bit-perfectly, even with lots of noise present. Additional error correction mechanisms are used, that means that even if it happens that one or even two bits in a byte (8 bits) are flipped, the original value can be reconstructed.

    So as long as you are not in an environment with extreme electromagnetic influences and your cable isn't very long, you can safely assume that what is sent into a digital cable is the same as what comes out of a digital cable, given that the cable isn't utter crap (i.e. cost more 10$ or so) or faulty.

    A DAC, though, might be a different beast in this regard from a DDC. We already talked about above that for USB, Toslink, and Coax connections, the clock for the DAC is reconstructed from the digital signal that is coming in unless we have a reclocking DAC. Like a DDC or any other digital receiver, it will, under normal circumstances, be able to bit-perfectly reconstruct the signal that is coming in−if not, there will be very audible clicks or scratches like the noises some DACs make when switching sample frequency or bit depth.

    Let's go back to induction and the impact it has on the signal. It is low, but it will lead to changes of the precise moment when the signal on the cable will cross the threshold from 0 to 1 or vice versa. And this signal is what the clock for the DAC is reconstructed from. And if the clock is off, the analog sound wave is not reconstructed 100% correctly, which is why streamers and DDCs make a difference at all (poor clock in a PC vs. precise clock in a streamer/DDC−note that the PC's poor clock is perfectly enough for any digital communication!).

    However, that DAC clock is not reconstructed from single bits, but from averages. As the noise that a cable gathers is usually similar to white noise, i.e. random, but the same on average, I doubt that there is really an impact on the precision of the clock for the DAC that is reconstructed from the signal. But it is at least imaginable that there could be a very small audible difference from a good USB/coax cable to an extremely shielded audiophile cable. Not really from a PC with its poor clock, I'd guess, which would probably generate larger deviations than cable noise could, but maybe from good digital sources like special PC extension cards or streamers/DDCs.

    I don't think that cable material (metals) or any other audiophile shenanigans can have an impact on a digital cable, but shielding maybe. A big maybe, but maybe. And only if the receiver is a DAC that doesn't reclock.

    Because as long as there are no audible clicks etc., the digital signal is reconstructed 100% correctly. The fine details like plankton or stage are only affected at the point when the digital signal is converted to analog, where timing is very important. This does not happen in a DDC, and in a reclocking DAC, the DAC makes sure with its own clock that it doesn't depend on the timing of the incoming signal.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2023
  7. Contrails

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    Just got to try a Singxer DDC via usb from a windows laptop running roon and compare it to my 2015 Auralic Aries Streamer. DDC was feeding i2s and the Steamer was AES into a Holo Spring 2 KTE DAC. I was able to switch between the two inputs on the fly.

    I vastly preferred the Auralic. Open and airy sounding, bigger soundstage and tighter bass. I am not sure what model Singxer DDC, but it was definitely warmer sounding with added midbass. But it also sounded closed in and off and not as clean. The Auralic Aries streamer is the one with the Femto clocks and LPS.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2023
  8. zottel

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    TIL (as I did some reading after @winders’ comments over in the Holo Audio Red thread made me wonder) that quite some of the stuff I wrote in this thread is BS, specifically the USB parts.

    I thought that USB and S/PDIF are the same in regard to timing being controlled by the sending device if the DAC doesn’t reclock the signal.

    This can be true, but normally isn’t. USB provides different modes of operation: Synchronous, adaptive, and asynchronous. In synchronous mode, the sender actually controls the clock like with S/PDIF and I2S. I haven’t found a source yet that explained what exactly adaptive mode is in a way that I understood, it seems that the receiver has some control over the clock in this case.

    But that isn’t really important, anyway, as usually, audio devices use asynchronous mode nowadays. Which means that USB audio will always be reclocked by the DAC. All data will be put into a buffer, and the receiver (DAC) will dynamically tell the sender how much data to send in each frame in order not to let the buffer become empty or overflow.

    All audio data is played from that buffer at a clock speed determined by the DAC alone.

    Frankly, this baffles me. Why would something like a DDC make any difference, then, if the DAC is fed via USB? It should be completely irrelevant if the DAC is fed from a computer or a streamer, it will use its own clock, anyway. Why decrapifiers? Will really so many bits flip? I doubt that.

    S/PDIF/AES and I2S are a different matter. Unless the DAC will outspokenly reclock these inputs, the sender’s clock will be used, which means that a streamer can have an impact I can explain.

    But with USB? Why do so many people say USB audio is bad when it’s actually a digital transport that should be mostly reliable, and it’s up to the DAC to make good use of the data? Or are there actually other problems I don’t know of that make USB decrapifiers worthwhile?

    I’m really interested in this stuff, so if anybody can shed some light on the matter, I’d be really grateful.
     
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  9. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    Yes, electrical noise polluting other aspects of the DAC, not just causing issues with the bits in the data stream (jitter). Same thing goes for Ethernet inputs on streamers, which can eventually make it down to your DAC.
     
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  10. earnmyturns

    earnmyturns Smartest friend

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    And DACs vary a lot in their ability to reject electrical noise from different inputs. For example, Metrum Onyx USB was worse than other inputs, especially I2S; Holo May USB is at least as good, and more flexible, than any of the other inputs.
     
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  11. zottel

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    I did some tests yesterday: Took out my RPi4 (standard noisy Pi power supply, using ethernet cables as opposed to Wi-Fi on the Zen Stream), connected it to the USB port of my Meier Audio Daccord (which is well isolated by design against all kinds of incoming noise) and compared that to S/PDIF from the Zen Stream, later to USB from the Zen Stream.

    This worked particularly well with Roon as I could group the Zen and the Pi and send the same music to them simultaneously and then just switch between the inputs of the DAC, which works without a pause at that DAC, too.

    During my first session, I didn’t hear any difference whatsoever. Flipping the input switch sometimes leads to some noise when the DAC is readjusting to the input, but sometimes it is completely silent when the two signals happen to be in sync. In those cases it seemed to me as if nothing had happened at all, the music just played on and was exactly the same as before.

    But during that session there was a bit of background noise; the dishwasher was doing its duty (a very silent dishwasher, but still), the washing machine was running two rooms away, and my wife was watching Charles’ coronation on her iPad. And I was using open headphones.

    In a second session without that background noise, and where I additionally cranked up the volume to levels I don’t usually listen at, I could discern some VERY small differences. Especially in the treble, there was a little bit of extra harshness coming from the Pi.

    Interestingly, when I then compared S/PDIF (Coax) and USB both from the Zen, which, as I now know, is essentially comparing the Zen’s clock + Daccord PLL to the Daccord’s own clock, I liked USB a bit better. But that was much harder to compare as I always had to remove the USB cable from the Zen to switch to Coax because for Roon, it automatically uses USB when present. Via HQPlayer, it is possible to choose which of the outputs to use via software, but opening the settings pauses output, so there’s a multi-second pause in the music, too.

    And the differences, even compared to RPi USB, are tiny, extremely tiny. So tiny that I’m sure I wouldn’t pass a blind test, and I’m not 100% sure if I really heard them or if that was more like something I wanted to hear.

    So, my takeaways from this are the following:
    • If you have a well-made DAC that has a decent clock and is well isolated against noise coming in from the sources, the advantages of a streamer over a noisy source via USB are tiny at best (because the DAC will reclock USB input, anyway).
    • By the same reason, if the DAC’s clock is shit, using a streamer via USB won’t help. You’ll have to use I2S, AES or S/PDIF (Coax or Toslink) to benefit from the streamer’s clock, and that in turn will only help if the DAC doesn’t reclock these sources, too (but many don’t).
    • A dedicated streamer’s USB output (and the other outputs, too) should be much less noisy, though, than that of a computer or RPi, which might help depending on how well your DAC is able to reject noise. I THINK I heard a very small difference even with my well-isolated DAC, but I wouldn’t insist on it being really there.
    Personally, with my setup, I think that I do benefit from the Zen Stream, but only by a very small margin. HQPlayer, e. g., costs less and makes more difference in my setup.

    In other words: With a good DAC, these are cables-level achievements. The last 1% or less.

    Maybe, if I want and have time, I’ll do comparisons with dongle DACs in the future, that should be more prone to noise influences than my DAC. Might be interesting.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2023
  12. winders

    winders boomer

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    That's not necessarily true. Even with the Holo Audio May KTE, the quality of the input USB matters. The May sounds better being fed by the Red than it does a Mac of any type. What does quality mean? Quality of clock and the amount of electrical noise present with higher quality having less electrical noise.
     
  13. zottel

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    But why? I’m not saying you’re wrong, in fact, I found the same, no great difference, but a difference.

    Theoretically, the clock should make no difference with asynchronous USB. If it does, how?

    And noise. I can imagine that the small difference I heard is caused by noise, but I’d like to know more than “somehow it seems to have an influence”. :)
     
  14. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    My takeaway: coronations make more difference than cables.
     
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  15. winders

    winders boomer

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    Because a better clocked signal is easier for the May USB interface to deal with....and less electrical noise and phase noise means less work for the incoming USB interface as well. With the May, this might be hard to measure....and hard to hear....
     
  16. Justrukin

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    Networks switches... I added the Netgear GS108Ev3, it has filtering... I also have the LHY SW-8... I could hear an immediate SQ difference with both. The proof in the pudding, was the Sony TV and streaming. The PQ went up more than a few notches, and the inexpensive Polk sound bar I have on the Sony went through the roof. Even my 80 yo mother asked what I did to the TV. These network switches do matter. The Netgear switch was $40 on Amazon. Alpha Audio has write ups on both the SW-8 and Netgear unit. Save your money, get the Netgear, I own three as I have two ISP's in the house.
     
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  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    What filtering?
     
  18. Justrukin

    Justrukin New

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    Filtering on the actual data stream, noise filtering, and it works. For $40 it is worth a shot, if it does not work, send it back. That is if you stream via ethernet. My system is entirely hard wired from the Xfinity router.
     
  19. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    To filter out what?

    (I found some mention of multicast stuff. Not important)
    What noise? a domestic switch is filtering stuff that probably doesn't affect the data anyway? Hmmm.

    Amazing that ethernet has, in all its various iterations over the decades, just worked. One of the wonders of computer engineering. It is not impossible to f**k it up, but, like stalling a diesel engine, it takes special effort.

    Colour me sceptical, but, as you say, it is but $40, and if it is keeping you happy... I'm happy for you.
     
  20. Garns

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