Ambiophonics, you have to try it

Discussion in 'Ambiophonics' started by Arok, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Arok

    Arok Rando

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    Honestly i am astonished of the half assed attempts and relative dismiss of the techniques from users in this thread. I published links explaining it in detail, but from the comments not many people took the 20 minutes it takes to read what's this about and understand it.

    Marvey, for this sound reproduction technique, it's MANDATORY to move the speakers close. If you tried it with the speakers in the usual stereo triangle, you haven't tried ambiophonics, but stereo with weird phase issues. If you bother to read the papers explaining it, maybe you will understand why.

    Second, reversed phase in stereo is used for the behind the speakers effects. This is different. It's crosstalk cancellation which account also for the time difference of sound arrival between ears.

    Anyway i don't understand the hostility. If everyone was like this, goodbye progress...

    I'm actually sad this thread is going the way it's going cause with all the technical know how that user there have, i assumed more open mindedness. I suppose the only way to make people bother is publishing a registration made with in ear mics comparing stereo and ambio on the same track but unfortunately i don't have the gear to do it. So i'll simply continue to enjoy! Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  2. Arok

    Arok Rando

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    You found one :) Do you reduce the bandwitdth of the crosstalk cancellation with filters or use it on the full spectrum of frequencies? In my 6,5x 4 m room i'm using 35ms delay, 6,6 db attenuation, from 400 to 9500 hz. For some reason the suggested 100 ms 2,3 db starting point they suggest on the ambio site tutorials don't work very well for me
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    OK. Let me spell this out:
    1. Amphibianphonics is Nothing Special: It is essentially what I described above and will repeat again: feed reverse polarity L into R channel and reverse polarity R feed into L channel. This concept has been known to sound engineers for 70 years now. There are variations of this, such as putting a delay on the reverse polarity signals, adjusting the levels of the reverse polarity signal (higher level = wider stereo separation), bass or treble thresholds and trim. This is an effect that is used in the studio.
    2. Other Products Already Do This: The K-Sound VST that @LFF described. The width function on the Lavry DA10/11 DACs, and the width function of the DEQ2496 or other similar EQ or pro sound processors. Ambphianphonics is simply a special case or specific implementation.
    3. Wrong Use Case: " it's MANDATORY to move the speakers close" My answer to that is this: no, fuck you. I'm not moving my speakers closer to be in front of my computer or TV screen. In fact, if you have your speakers set up normally, then you DO NOT NEED Amphibanphonics. Also, this forum focuses primarily on personal audio, which means headphones and IEMs. As @LFF and I have said: This is good for low-fi soundbar type speakers where L and R are close together. Stop pushing your shit on people who do not need it. The two channel guys went to two channel because they don't want their speakers to sound like headphones.
    4. Wrong Forum - Recording Techniques: If you want to talk about microphone techniques using Amphibanphonics or what Alan Blumlein knew back in 1934, Gearslutz might be a more appropriate forum.
    5. Outlandish Claims: "increased detail to the point that a 500 $ speaker sound more revealing than my $1000+ headphone setup", "holographic soundstage with perceivable height, width and depth", etc.
    6. Lack of technical understanding of Amphibianphonics: "Something similar would be Smyth Realiser" No no no no no no. The Realiser is totally different and uses HTRF from a variety of angles and what I presume interpolation of the HTRF along with a head tracker to give the illusion of a two channel setup, like in a super freaky way. Profiles are per venue and user. See #1 to understand what Amphibianphonics is.
    Finally, for the love of Zeus, please go away. Begone! This is the wrong site. Head-Fi is probably better place if you guys want to hit more forums and add to this list: http://www.ambiophonics.org/FAQ.html

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  4. Arok

    Arok Rando

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    So you insist to be the know it all. Can't be there are better ways than the one in your 10000 $ system eh? For the life of god no!

    Furthermore, the forum is right, as this is a sound reproduction technique using speakers, and NOT A RECORDING TECHNIQUE. Again, you are talking from the ass, and you have not read the links explaining how this work and why. How can you try something if you don't even understand it? At the risk of repeating myself, you need the speakers close to try ambiophonics, and there are scientific reason for why it's like this. I think every sane person can see how childish you are.

    Well, happy to go away . I like to talk with intelligent people, not with ones who are so sure of their convinctions to not being able to see the forest for the trees. Especially when there are papers and explanations and you continue to say you tried the system without actually doing it like it should be done. Seems you are more fit to head-fi than me honestly ;) Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  5. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    It's what happens when, having been told "I don't care, I'm not doing more on this" one or more parties keeps going on about it. Eventually even the most patient soul will just tell you to shut the fuck up.

    I think "childish" is a moniker better applied to people trying to push stuff on/advocate for things that the target party just doesn't give a shit about (and has clearly said so) ... and then getting all upset when they don't get the response/participation they're looking for.
     
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  6. Mithrandir41

    Mithrandir41 Friend

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    Don't take it personally. You brought something to the table that no one happens to care about. Live your life dude!Sharing is one thing, being pushy is another. You happen to be the latter.
     
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  7. jayeshrc

    jayeshrc Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Sorry, ignoring everything else, this is a stupid statement to back yourself up. ANYBODY can write a paper and throw it up on a website. A lot of published scientific papers also have covered up issues and sometimes altered results.
     
  8. Arok

    Arok Rando

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    I started this thread in a friendly way to share something i personally tried, and found working like a charm. I started getting replies which clearly demonstrate that people haven't read what this is and how it works. How should back myself up if you guys are afraid to try? I said i tried and got amazing results, i say there's papers and you say a lot of papers are crap. Well, don't try, what can i say?

    If someone is interested, here's explained why this work better than i can, maybe. This is my last attempt.

    "
    Recordings of music and film soundtracks contain cues used by the ear/brain to localize sound. Home or studio reproduction using conventional stereo, 5.1, 7.1, or 10.2 distorts these cues and creates false ones. The result is localization distortion, which degrades horizontal and depth imaging of direct and ambient sound, degrades clarity of instruments, colors the sound, and greatly reduces size and depth of the sonic stage. Localization distortion can be reduced to very low levels by a technology called Ambiophonics. Ambiophonics, at its simplest, consists of crosstalk-cancelled playback by two closely-spaced, front speakers. The result is that one can now hear at home what the recording microphones hear—and what the microphones hear is greatly improved horizontal and depth localization; solid, clear, three-dimensional imaging; less colored sound; improved clarity and tonality; improved transient response; and a sonic stage that is very deep and very wide—150-180 degrees—compared to the 60-degree wide stage of the stereo equilateral triangle. Ambiophonics does not artificially increase the width and depth of the stage. Instead, it reduces localization distortion to such low levels that one can hear the width and depth that was actually recorded on the disc. Details are discussed for setting up an Ambiophonic system with 2, 4, or 6 speakers.

    First there was mono and then there was stereo. Using just one speaker, monophonic reproduction sounds like all instruments are located at the speaker. Using two widely-space speakers, stereophonic reproduction sounds like different instruments have different locations—with the locations stretching from one speaker to the other. Having different locations for different instruments is so highly valued that stereophonic reproduction—now almost 80 years old—and offshoots such as 5.1 and 7.1 have become standard in the home reproduction of music and movies. But stereo and its offshoots do far from a perfect job of localizing sound and their imperfections limit the quality, the believability, and the realism of the reproduction. A new technology—called Ambiophonics—fixes most of the problems with stereophonic reproduction. Ambiophonics is based on almost a century of psychoacoustics research on how the ear/brain localizes sound. This historical research, combined with current research, tells us how conventional stereo destroys good sound localization and how to fix the problem. Ambiophonics fixes most of stereo’s problems by using crosstalk reduction with two closely-spaced front speakers—separated only 20 to 30 degrees. Yet the sonic stage created can be 150-180-degrees wide! Just how this can happen is a wonderful tale of how laboratory findings can produce unexpected and beautiful results."

    Now if you want to try, be my guest. If not, i don't care. I came to share a discovery, i don't have the intention of being trolled anymore than i already have been.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Look, I tried it. It didn't work. It sounded like shit as I expected because it did not fit my use case or anyone else's use case here. Everyone here either uses headphones or speakers set apart. No one here uses two speakers in front of us set one foot apart for a 10-15 degree angle.

    Oh, go fuck yourself. I've read the links... it's nothing special - see below. If you are too stupid to realize this because you've been bamboozled by the ambiophonics site, then I what I can say? That entire website reads like a huge infomercial. Like a really bad one. For example "Why would an Antarctic explorer spend 20 years on Ambiophonics?" WTF?

    http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-increase-perceived-stereo-width-using-phase
    [​IMG]

    http://www.ambiophonics.org/Tutorials/RGRM-RACE_rev.html
    RACE flowchart.png

    It's essentially the same thing, same idea, but with Ambiphonics implementing a specific attentuation, time delay, and LP/HP effect thresholds. No different from Bob Katz's K-Sound or the generic Stereo Width setting on Lavry DACs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  10. jayeshrc

    jayeshrc Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Well, the main issue is (just as Marvey says) most people wouldnt want to put their speakers close together. Its inconvenient, and makes you stuck to digital in that configuration. Sure you could get a miniDSP and make your vinyl rig use it too, but I dont actually see how this makes you "hear the width and depth that was actually recorded on the disc" - all this music was recorded and mastered on speakers set up normally, not the ambiphonics way.
     
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @Arok, obviously there is more to this forum (and audio in general) than Amphetaminophonics, and/or soundstage fuck-isation.

    Snap out of it bro. Move on to other bigger and better things.

    Armpitbionics seems like an App for that. Don't get stuck with it, move along. There are other things in audio.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Amphibianphonics is nothing more than well known studio techniques packaged into another name, complete with a very badly laid out circa 1990s infomercial website containing testimomials, white papers, credentials, personal stories of awesomeness (why some dude stayed in Antarctic), and a proselytization section that says this:

    The following Forums seem to be the most suitable for discussions related to Ambiophonics. But none of them have a specific forum topic entitled Ambiophonics. It is hoped that those interested in this technology will prevail on the moderators of these sites to add Ambiophonics as a main category"

    These guys are five times worse than the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door. At least they get the hint to go away.
     
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  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Ambiophonics, you have to try it....

    Well, no we don't have to try it. Sure: I've shown a passing interest in theory in the past, @Marvey has been a lot deeper and actually tried something too.

    It's a free world. Talking about or trying Ambiophonics is one of the options. So, for whatever reason is not doing. Trying to beat people with it is a great way to [not] win friends and influence people.
     
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    1ro5l0.jpg
     
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  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I need photo of @ultrabike in priests' robes doing that. He would look totally awesome. You guys should have been photos of him when he was young. Spanish casanova. Seriously.
     
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Spanish Inquisition FTW! "Exsurge Domine Et Judica Causam Tuam"!
     
  17. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

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    Well, I just wasted 12 GBP on AMTRA. I tried this with my BMRs and even moved them closer together and it completely wrecks the realism of the staging of the speakers.

    Or you could try a RIVA festival and get a ridiculous stage out of a $500 wireless speaker that is engineered with a ton of time domain trickery to throw a virtual stage. @Donald North is a genius.
     
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  18. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    That didn't take long!

    \/
     
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  19. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    You do, and you'll clean it up!
     
  20. jayeshrc

    jayeshrc Resident Crash Test Dummy

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    Well okay I actually tried it and I didn't really dig it. Imaging/precision was quite off and I didn't feel a lot of depth at all but there was some soundstage, albeit a bit weird. I definitely didn't hear any increase in clarity or tonality, nor did it feel like I was in the room with the band or any of that stuff.

    The worst thing was that my desk looked like this:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017

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