Massdrop: Search Your Feelings

I don't have anything against MD, but I appreciate @SteelCannon for bringing the issues up and facilitating discussion.

It got me thinking about the ZDT Jr and its implications for EC. Despite people being told to go to MD for support, I'm sure there will be people bothering EC for support. Maybe I'll sound a bit elitist for saying this, but I feel like the ZDT Jr may sully the EC name if it doesn't live up to the hype. It reminds me of the Cavalli LC in which a revered totl amp maker decided to a budget amp for the masses. The LC was hyped to hell and didn't deliver. The whole fiasco with its sonic performance and technical problems most likely hurt the Cavalli name. Of course it's different in this case since Laconic is building these amps with MD doing the marketing and distribution, but it still has the EC name on the product. While I'm sure that the ZDT Jr would have sold fine if it kept its original name as the Laconic Blues Mini, the EC name definitely has an effect on brand perception and drove more people to make the purchase. There's no doubt that some of these buyers are thinking something along the lines of "I've always wanted to own an Eddie Current amp, and now there's finally one that I can afford!"

While I trust @Hands with his opinions of the ZDT Jr, knowing his preferences and experience, I'd like to hear the amp myself when it is out.
Being in possession of the actual EC ZDT, I'd like to hear if the ZDT Jr lives up to its name. Based on the impressions I've read of the ZDT Jr, it seems like the two amps have very different strengths in their sound.

 

@Hands

This is the comment I made that started everything:

They try to extract as much value out of hobbyists with terrible
customer service and misleading marketing tricks. And they screw over more and more companies and communites
along the way, taking credit for other peoples work and waiving their legal team at small businesses.
Personally I advise all the companiesI care about to stay far away from them.
-----------------------

I believe that in the long term Massdrop will have a negative impact on both consumers and business in this and other similar communities.
I think they will make it harder for small business to survive and harder for new businesses to enter. I believe that
instead of the current variety of well built/innovative products we will be left with just a few options from massdrop of commoditized products made in china.
I also think that sbaf contributes a lot to massdrop via product releases and that they should contribute more to our community with a stronger
presence, more transparency, and some amp loaners. A zdt jr loaner for example.

my initial post and arguments for the above are below:

"The first reason I dislike massdrop is because they treat communities like ours
like cattle they can herd and take away the person to person interaction our communities are built on.
They use marketing tricks like fear of missing and ambiguous language to convince you that saving a few
bucks(usually very few compared to other sources), is worth it in exchange for no return capability, a crappy warranty,
long waits, and poor costumer service. And I mean seriously poor customer service, if you haven't experienced dealing with
them look up some reviews online. Also, you are taking risk with a lot of products such as increased waits,
delayed shipping, faulty production, cut corners, an undisclosed cheaper version for massdrop marketed as the original
etc etc. Also, "customer service" "return capabilities" etc all have value, at least I am willing to pay a couple bucks for them.
And putting up money in advanced has an opportunity cost associated. Also, I really value the interaction between consumer and business.
It is always a pleasure hearing Jason from schiit talk about his products and tell his silly anecdotes, and they run that
business with integrity so I don't flinch that sbaf is basically a part of their (nonexistent) marketing team.
I hope that they never work with massdrop, and I know that they never will.


The second, and even more important, is that massdrop is seriously hurting small businesses in our communities. Companies that work with them
get a boost in sales but lose ownership of their products. Massdrop is commoditizing niche products and in the long run these business will be pushed
out of the way and cannibalized. It is actually a tragedy of the commons, basically companies that don't work with massdrop
will still be pushed out of the way once massdrop has the ability(patents and means of production) to mass produce "their products". Companies that
work with them will be hurt in the long run, but at least they will make some money in the process. Everyone in the keyboard, headphone etc industries
knows this, but since they know that their competitors are working with massdrop already and giving them trade secrets, patents and intel on how to produce
relevant technologies, there is a lot of pressure for these companies to take the short term reward thus hastening their own and others demise.

It has already happened too many times, even right now massdrop is claiming they own the rights to the halo-true keyboard switches input club designed, because massdrop funded production of them so they could use them in their collaboration keyboard "massdrop x input club k type keyboard". Of course that situation is more complicated,but it illustrates a general pattern with massdrop. They are doing everything they can to be able to manufacture this stuff on their own with their own patents etc. In the long run this will be bad for consumers too because the companies they love might not be able to survive in the future, and massdrops products might be the only ones available. I prefer a variety of well built innovative products than a few cheap commoditized options."

 

I think this is still relevant for people who don't want to real everything else.

Input Club

"We (Input Club) developed and invented the Halo switches, and worked with Massdrop to finance the physical tooling that allows them to go to mass production. We assigned Massdrop the patent rights in exchange for a royalty and a “license-back” that we believe allows us to source the switches for use in keyboards. But when we tried to order switches for the WhiteFox/NightFox, Massdrop would not let us source them. They then claimed to own the “Halo” name and asked us to give up the license-back altogether, so we would essentially lose all access to our own invention."

Massdrop's response
https://www.massdrop.com/talk/2342/massdrop-halo-switch-update

"As you may know, for some time Input Club has collaborated with Massdrop in the design of Massdrop's HALO switch. Throughout our relationship, Input Club has acknowledged they are the "Designer" of the HALO switch, with Massdrop as the "Manufacturer and Distributor" of the HALO switch.

Along the way, Massdrop spent tens of thousands of dollars, dozens of hours, and many domestic and international flights to help bring this concept to life. In our agreement, in exchange for this effort, Input Club agreed to receive a royalty from Massdrop from the sale of the HALO switch and Massdrop would be able to exclusively manufacture and distribute the switch.

In our agreement for the HALO switch, Input Club requested an exception to our exclusive distribution rights to allow them to offer switches directly to endcustomers as replacement parts and as standalone switches via their website. This was a reasonable request, so we agreed and wrote it into the agreement."

 

You're leaving out:

"After that, Input Club launched their kickstarter campaign for the Whitefox, offering HALO switches as an option. This was against the terms of our agreement, so we reached out to let them know and discuss ways to move forward. Their response was to tell us they would make their own HALO switch, to demand that we change the name of the HALO switch, and to demand that we inform all K-Type purchasers that they were not going to receive authentic HALO switches. At this point they directed us to their lawyer and required that all future communication go through legal channels. After two months of trying to work with Input Club's attorney, no agreement could be reached. In fact, Input Club and their attorney threatened to use a public forum as leverage to tarnish the reputation of Massdrop. We refused to give into this bullying tactic, and so today Input Club has followed through on its threat."

We also don't have the full contract to review. Note your prior post including what is purported to be one clause in their contract:

If the "Whitefox" was not on Exhibit C, then Massdrop obviously has a reasonable claim that Input Club breached the agreement. Enough arm-chair lawyering with incomplete facts. It's no more effective now than it was discussing the validity of patent claims made by a certain speaker manufacturer.

 

the legal dispute isn't necessarilly the point. It is more the fact that massdrop is accumulating patents and manufacturing know how to build and market products on its own without the original businesses. Whether you find this an issue depends on your preferences and what you foresee the long term consequences to be.

Im going to do work now. continue this discussion without me.

 

Companies have a choice whether or not they retain complete control of their IP or transfer rights/ownership in those assets to other companies, thus freeing themselves up to pursue other endeavors. Companies enter into manufacturing, distribution, and other commercial agreements every single day, around the world. Sometimes business relationships don't end up coming to fruition as the parties intended.

These smaller companies may agree to grant rights to Massdrop that they otherwise wouldn't because Massdrop has the infrastructure and shipping channels that the smaller companies don't. This is called bargaining power, i.e., reality. No one is putting a gun to someone's head and forcing them to grant exclusive licenses to or ownership of their core IP to Massdrop. The companies are doing it, presumably, because they lack the resources themselves and/or it seemed like a good business decision.

It's also very common under these agreements where exclusive licenses or assignments of IP are concerned that the licensee/assignee assumes any and all responsibility for the maintenance, prosecution, and defense of the licensed/assigned IP and any applications or filings (worldwide) re: the same. These agreements also likely contemplate improvements, derivative works, modifications, etc. That's the point of an exclusive license: the counterparty to the contract then stands in the original owner's shoes. Think if the opposite were true: Massdrop pays tons of money for certain patent rights thinking it has the exclusive rights therein, which rights allow them to exclude all others from practicing the claims in the patent, and then the original owner continues business as usual, eroding the value of the rights Massdrop paid for. This is why grantbacks are typically super limited in scope, especially with future developments.

 

You already stated you don't know anything about IP and patent law, so why would you have any basis for criticizing the act of "accumulating patents"?

edit: I am not a lawyer, but post above from @zonto , @SteelCannon , you need to understand that's all very true...

 

No we aren't. I'm very certain they do have some power to wield. I'm mainly saying that they've earned it, and that wielding it (lawfully) is just fine. And I'm also saying that I flat out don't think much of your argument. American Idol and The Voice can't ruin music any more than Massdrop can ruin audio, gaming keyboards, or pocket knives.

 

I'm not a lawyer either but I work with lawyers on contracts as part of my job. I understand the kind of work that goes into protecting and licensing IP as well as providing liability limits. If I had an idea that I wanted to develop, my first thought would be a good lawyer. It almost sounds from the argument here is that small business are disadvantaged because the big boys have lawyers to draft documents the small business doesn't understand until too late. In that case, either get a good lawyer or just don't sign the agreement. It's a purely binary decision. Negotiations can ONLY happen when you have eyes on the documents that really, really, really understand what the damn things say and they're phrased in terms of legal decisions history so they don't always say what you might think the English words mean. I know enough to ask my lawyers questions such as "is this phrase loose English or does it refer back to case law?".

Everybody has fond hopes about the outcome of legal agreements but they sometimes go horribly pear shaped. Sometimes you just have to decide its just not worth the f***ing effort. And don't even get me started on international agreements!

Rob

 

+1

I also deal with the same and without a doubt, the small guys sign at the dotted just to get some business only later to discover the details of what they signed. I recently had a guy return a signed 19-page contract rife with dense legalese in about 30 minutes with zero redlines. Unreal. No way in hell they know what they're doing. So, remind me again, who exactly is being naive here??

 

Though it's essentially a delta sigma with a long polyphase filter running on a fat FPGA, isn't it, like most Wattsware?

 

Apart from the occasional audio product, Massdrop does not really interest me. They remind me of The Innovations Catalogue, which in the pre-internet days of catalogue shopping and mail-box marketing, used to come through the letterbox of my childhood home. As a developing shopaholic and gadget freak, I used to pounce on it, expecting to be fascinating and filled with object lust, but disappointment was nearly always the result. What they sold was slightly quirky same-old-stuff. Nostalgia: here comes Massdrops, with yet another array of pens, knives, legs of lamb, keyboards, real-leather USB cables... stuff. Stuff that doesn't, mostly, interest me. There are exceptions, and my one Massdrop buy was not an audio product. If it was bricks and mortar, it probably wouldn't be on my shopping trail. I shop like a tomcat: my "territory" is the path, not the area.

The amount of time that thing took to get to me was certainly disappointing. I may live on the other side of the world, but, these days, the planet is not very big. Amazon can (with the occasional complete failure, of course) get stuff to me from USA as quickly they can from another Indian city (hyperbole: but not by much). The combined USA/UK and Indian post offices only take 7-10 days, assuming customs don't screw us up. Massdrop delivery scored a massive could-do-better with me.

So... they took the group buy and "commercialised" it. They looked at the idea and thought We could do this with added profit. Not a bad idea. I don't begrudge them that. Continuing to pretend that it is all community is a little bit pseudo, but hey, communities form around a number of commercial enterprises.

One off customer. So far, and never likely to be big. Even when they ship overseas, they are not good at at. They mean as much to me as Walmart, Costco, and other essentially-American names that most of the world has heard of, but maybe not experienced (I did occasionally shop at Costco in London). It seems they are going to remain an American experience... although the world probably thought that about Amazon once!

Because of all that (jeez, Thad, get to the point, man!) I have not thought much about who they are, what they do and how they do it. This thread has been very interesting. Perhaps I had bought in to the community idea that they project, not thinking too much that there is serious business going on here. So the thread's both interesting and an eye-opener.

@SteelCannon, I have read your threads with great interest, not only because... Massdrop, but for the general economic stuff there. Whether right or wrong, you make good points well. The only thing I'd say is that, even if you feel that they have not all been addressed, repeating them will not actually further them.

So far as SBAF involvement is concerned... I don't care if a small group of well-connected people here get f prototypes, pre-release kit, and nor do I care if they get given the boxes. This is not exactly cash-in-hand we're talking here, nor are we even talking about people who are motivated to review because, financially it is the only way that can actually get that kit. Above all, it is pretty-damned obvious that nobody gets to buy, bribe or otherwise pressurise a guaranteed good review from those guys or any other member.

I imagine that the gravy-train goods get shipped to certain reviewers with cheerful certainty. I imagine that SBAF members get theirs with a certain amount of manufacturer trepidation. The industry connections can only work to SBAF's advantage. Do people need reminding that this is not a site where manufacturer arse gets licked (I love the American expression, brown-nosing. Oh so horribly graphic!) and any member who does not toe that line gets jumped on. This site is not owned by sponsors, and I feel confident that if that ever happens, its founders will be moving on and leaving it behind.

I believe that people can learn a lot from how Schiit set up and run their business, and most of it is positive. Maybe we can learn, good or bad, from what, and how, Massdrop and others are operating. Mould breakers? Path breakers? In many ways, Schiit did everything in the most traditional and old-fashioned way. Using their own capital; not spending money until they had it; not running on loans and vapour finance. Good old ways of running a business, and they have shown that, if the business is any good, they still work.

By the way, not sure it even matters to this conversation, but is Massdrop making a profit? Or running on debt? Just curious.

 

It only costs about $250-$500 to pay your lawyer to read through a legal agreement and then explain it to you fully. It's one of the most common things law offices do.

 

I think the name massdrop explains itself well.

I haven't been in a single massdrop so far. I actually don't like the concept of massdrop. Makes me feel like a scavenger/vulture/shark hunting for a meal. Massdrop never exudes or pretends to be better than it is. Its a group buy, to try to cut prices down on products that are usually 2nd generation/not doing well in sales. I don't think you'll find current gen/premium items dropping left and right on massdrop. Sometimes the group buy is not from the manufacturer directly,(for example chord mojo, with shady practices like purposefully cutting out the serial #'s on the boxes). Most of the time the deals are not great and they grossly exaggerate the savings by putting an msrp that most people would not currently pay for.

The feeling i get from all massdrop made items is....look we took a item that is great, but expensive....so we cut some corners and changed some things so its pretty much the same thing but at a lower price. The concept is always you get a bang for the buck(thought not always entirely). I don't think massdrop items look so premium. For example, massdrop iems sure doesn't look premium in any sense. Seems almost every drop in this category has huge lead times and many have delays. To get the deal you have to wait.

The delays I can understand a bit. Having organized the group buy for the dac1541, I gotta say I wish there didn't have to be a middle man for the whole thing. I have to say it was a lot more tedious and time consuming than I imagined. . I Had to collect everyone's money, wire the money, wait for shipping...go through customs, then get the good, package them so it gets to people safely......All the SBAF members were lightning quick with payments(you know its a good community when people wire you over 1000 dollars gifted when they haven't met you ) and I tried to work everything with lightning effeciency, but the whole process took two weeks.

I still think Massdrop can do better. TBH I think the whole ZDT jr amp drop was poorly executed. You send reviewers the stuff before and they aren't allowed to share their thoughts until right before the drop announcement....makes SBAF look like it is shilling for Massdrop products, and it can look subjective when a non community member wants to be skeptical.

They already made the amp....enough to go around to "trusted" ears and reviewers(even steve gutteburg Lol). With good feedback from @Marvey and @Hands, along with endorsement that it is a mega deal at the price point, I think massdrop should feel confident to just make all the amps available the day of the drop. Just drop it 7 months later. I don't think they would have had trouble selling the limited run of amps seeing that over 200 are willing to wait 7-8 months. i'm sure all of them would have sold given they were readily available. Its just stupid to say.....its the best thing at this price, but funds have to be collected, and the consumer has to wait like a crowdfunder.

For example...probably not a good example but....I didn't see apple taking preorders for iphone X after its annoucement...while asking customers to wait 7-8 months.

I agree with @SteelCannon about the whole "missing out" thing massdrop drives. I'm tired of hearing at this PRICE its such a steal and you can only get it within this small time window....you have to just trust and make an impulsive buy. Making you feel like you are missing out on the second coming of jesus at $400 paired with a 7-8 month wait....with ideas like "good things come for people that wait".

I sure hope that most people don't think this is a good way to practice business. I don't think anyone who works at a corporation would do business on terms of how massdrop is running. If I am wrong, maybe others can try that approach in a business meeting with a third party handling the operations and see how "good things come for people that wait" flies.

That kind of practice paired with rumors of IP problems sure doesn't give a good image for massdrop.

Though I like deals, I like working directly with the party selling me the goods, and knowing that i have warranty...etc...like schiit.

I think people(vendors and consumers) should know what they are getting themselves into when dealing with Massdrop. It is what it is and if you are cool with it, then by all means drop away.

P.S. I say this but if massdrop makes a massdrop X cavalli liquid crimson or some unobtainable amp, I can see myself caving .