Mini-Meet - Saturday 9/3/2016 Sherman Oaks 11 to 4

Discussion in 'The Meeting Place' started by purr1n, Aug 28, 2016.

  1. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

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    Is $1400 a good price for a BW?
     
  2. zonto

    zonto Friend

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    Roughly the price they sold for after shipping, tax, etc. ($1289 + $x)
     
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  3. brencho

    brencho Friend

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    with tax and shipping it was ~1400-1500
     
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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    Considering that EC now has nothing to gain (this amp is cancelled), I will now say a few words about it: This amp is super special. I would not call the BW or BW2 a neutral sounding amp. Others may feel free to disagree with me, but IMO, what makes the BW super special is that it has a warmth and bloom akin to the Zana Deux amps. The original BW (10 units) has a tonal balance similar to the Zana Deux SE. The later BW2 has smoother treble, less warmth, and expanded stage approaching to the Zana Deux Super.

    To be totally clear, the BW is not as good as the ZDS or any well implemented tube amp. No solid-state amp will sound as good as a well implemented tube amp under appropriate conditions. What the BW offers is a certain warmth and bloom* and treble smoothness without sacrificing transient response, liveliness, microdynamics, and deep stage (relative to other solid-state amps) without sounding dead, overly forgiving and polite, or like mud. With a good source, the BW is a highly engaging amp where you can listen to for hours. I have never heard a solid-state amp like this and I don't expect one like this to ever be made again. I don't expect everyone to like it, but I do honestly believe this is going to be one of those rare collector items, crappy silk-screening, bad fonts, hammer-tone paint, and all.

    *which incidentally is not my personal preference, and it may not gel with certain headphones
     
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  5. Wfojas

    Wfojas Friend

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    I had to smile at your honesty on the fonts and crappy silk screening. I wanted to like all the responding posts multiple times. I guess $1400 is high if it was used but due to scarcity, is probably worth it. Thanks for people helping out on the info. The danger of participating in a website as rich as this, that discusses something you have no use case for, is you then make a use case for it, lol.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  6. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    yah the same "warmth and bloom" that is poo pood in the USB to SPDIF/Reclocker (Mutec 3+USB) segment of the chain is championed if it happens at the amp level.
    :p

    edit: this comment being added in line, the "morning after" and doing some re-reading.

    1. completely understandable @Marvey getting peeved at me for too many smart ass comments with smileys and no real discussion behind it. SBAF is often a place I visit at night to goof off with quick commentary as much as learn or contribute toward audio topics. there's limits obviously.

    2. all of the below could have been avoided if instead I merely posed a question:
    Question: Why is "what makes the BW super special is that it has a warmth and bloom" enjoyed by some/many in this amp, but the same w+b not as welcomed in a Mutec3+USB or other usb converters?
    potential Answer: "because there's more to it than only w+b with mutec due to loss of clarity, resolution, more rounded transients, less extension in the bass, etc."
    would have been a quick Q+A end with less fuss.

    already apologized below in this thread, so I'm moving on.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  7. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex SBAF's Imelda Marcos

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    No, this is completely off base. Marv's not playing favorites here. I need to review the mutec myself, but there is a strong distinction between warmth added without a loss of clarity + resolution and warmth added that results in a loss or detail. This is the G Factor @shaizada is the master of. He is the champion of a full bodied, involving sound without losing any detail. Once I review the mutec system and the BW2 I'll tell you where I think they land.

    As an aside, I think it's disingenuous to represent the stock Mutec as the darling you guys are hearing when it's @MisterRogers' awesome custom LPS solution (NOT a plug and play mod) that a few folks have said makes the Mutec so magical.
     
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  8. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    The use of the Mutec MC 3+ USB FW1.10 resulted in reduced macrodynamics, more rounded transient response, less extension in the bass, and at under certain circumstances, added a treble sheen. While certain things may do well with more warmth and bloom, it's a matter of how much. @shaizada once demonstrated this to me with a carbon fiber turntable mat. It added a certain kind of warmth, but the reduced technicalities were infinitesimal compared to what it brought to the table. I cannot say the situation was the same with the the Mutec - too much was lost.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  9. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    I'm not championing the custom LPS Mutec3+USB as a be all - end all.
    just stating that one man's "i like the bloom and warmth here (amp)" and not "there" (stock Mutec 3+USB) puts BOTH the USB reclocker and the amp in to the same subjective vein: try it yourself to see where, and IF you like either better.

    there's no definitive conclusion being made on either device. *UNLESS* the chain is the same.
     
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  10. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    not having a stock Mutec 3+USB, nor your exact chain- won't click the Dislike button.
    had you a crappy old iMac, a Yggdrasil, used LPS+Mutec3+USB AES out to Yggdrasil AES in, to a EC Uber Studio 7 with HE1K, well- don't agree.
    which is acceptable.

    just making sure readers remain focused: apples (stock Mutec3+USB, Chain config A) vs. oranges (LPS Mutec 3+USB, Chain config B)
    are. not. the. same.
    until we all get RedNets.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    This is probably the third time you've tried to bust my balls about this without offering to enter into some kind of meaningful discussion (which we finally seem to be having now). At some point, the smileys seem disingenuous. I don't know if this is your intent. If you don't understand what I am saying, go back and read your posts again and imagine why I might be thinking "WTF is your problem?" I think I've been pretty patient with your antics so far.

    If you wanted to state the chains and actual devices are different, than say so.
     
  12. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    sorry, didn't intend for smiley's intent to be disingenuous. as commentary on this product is happening in multiple threads.

    subjective statements by yourself (stock Mutec3+USB) are usually taken as gospel fairly quickly by the Following.
    hoping to remind future readers that neither Mutec 3+USB (stock or LPS) nor BW1 nor BW2 are perfect for every chain or pairing.

    all this with the fact that for MONTHS my chain was the LPS+Mutec+3+USB, Yggdrasil, BW1 with HE1, and found little fault.

    trying to avoid an echo chamber.
    should I move away from USB reclockers all together, would probably be the most prudent comparison and commentary of all.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    Then you should state this as a careful consideration for SuperBAF readers in my Mutec impressions thread, of which I was very specific about the chains. I detest passive aggressive behavior. You've seriously tested my patience. Bringing up straw man arguments on the warm / bloomy thing across several different threads decreases s/n and makes me rather unhappy.
     
  14. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    warmth+bloom was clearly not entirely descriptive of your stock Mutec3+USB findings, so yes I over simplified.
    unfortunately Mutec warmth+bloom was what some others focused on and seeing the same w+b as praise in BW thread was unintended overlap to my eyes tonight.

    we need more happy in the world, not less.
    so shall decrease smileys and signal to noise in favor of constructing better cognitive reminders to the Following instead.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    I was never personally a fan of the w+b on the BW. I've made this clear many times and have even recommended against using BW with certain headphones. This is what gets me the most.
     
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  16. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    agree. believe you (and others) made that clear- that BW1/BW2 was best with some headphones and not all.
    BW1 was great to my ears with HD800 and HE1K, yet did not have a stable of Sennh to run it past.

    the asterisk was clear - may not gel with certain headphones.
    and unfortunately I have never heard a ZDS.

    will stop derailing the thread now.
     
  17. Artasia

    Artasia Friend

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    To move beyond the straw man terms of warmth and bloom, I will corroborate Marv's more specific criticism that the Mutec 3+USB did severely compromise the extension and magic of the Gungnir Multibit's Moffat bass, made clear by simply switching back to raw USB, and it did smear transient response.* I initially embraced it for getting rid of the sharp hash I was experiencing. The tradoffs became more apparent the more time I spent with it. I have another on the way for comparison purposes, as I am sincerely respectful of its reclocking prowess.

    I wonder if somehow the Mutec is fucking with the effects of Schiit's closed-form, propriety filter.

    *But I should add I was not sure whether my impressions were misleading me until others more recently started vocalizing the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  18. shaizada

    shaizada Friend

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    Interesting discussion, though I'm reading just the tail end of it on this page.

    Thanks for tagging me here @Marvey and @zerodeefex (by the way congratulations Ravi on bringing more life into this world :) Fatherhood is really the best, besides the poopy smells of the beginning!!).

    I have a few thoughts I'd like to share about "warmth + bloom". What is being attempted to be captured here in the playback chain is a naturalness of sound that finds, really a basis in how instruments may sound in real life. As an example, take your thumb and index finger close to your ear and rub the two fingers together. Listen for that natural skin tone and texture you hear. This "sound" has a fundamental warmth and realism to it. It is what binds our mental sound map to sounds in the real world. We REACT instinctively to it. The same way a female is naturally tuned to hear the cries of a child or a male in a hunter gatherer group can feel the bass frequencies of a mastodon nearby (who they might be hunting or is hunting them!). These sounds, we are actually programmed for and come to us instinctively.

    When we listen to music, or maybe I should say, when I listen to "reproduced" music, I look for a naturalness in the sound. More often than not, digital music especially is guilty of not having that texture, warmth and tactile feel that makes it "natural" for our brains to process. It is a delicate thing, but believe me, when you dial it into your rig, you will absolutely, without a shadow of doubt, KNOW, JUST KNOW it is right.

    That is what a musical rig should strive for. Naturalness in the highs, the mids and the bottom end. When this elusive mix is correct, the system will vanish and you WILL be left behind with the musical connection.

    This might be hard and wordy to explain in text and forum posts. If you ever are around or in town, reach out and I can try and demonstrate what I mean through a listening session.

    Cheers!

    I want to add one more thing. I've seen and heard MIGHTY audio gear fall on its face and meager gear own the musical heavens. It really is about synergy and tuning in your own hands. It is fun learning the ropes and trying to pursue that golden sound. I just want to say, it IS attainable...u just have to know that in your heart.
     
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  19. abernardi

    abernardi Friend

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    This is mostly off topic, but maybe it will add dimension to Shaizada's post above: I was in New York last week and saw Fiddler on the Roof at the Broadway Theater and they committed what I consider a cardinal sin for this audiophile. The way the stage is designed, the orchestra is UNDER the stage and completely mic'd through the PA system. The sound was so bad I could have sworn they were using a pre-recorded music track. In fact I was convinced of it until the cast was taking their bows and acknowledged the conductor. Only then did I see a small head and some waving arms coming from deep within the pit. I was appalled. I don't know if this is a trend on broadway as I haven't been to a show in over a decade, but I used to go all the time when I lived in New York. There was absolutely NO sense that these were live instruments, there was absolutely NO sense of the various instrument's materials or resonances. In fact it sounded like a bad digital recording, no lie! I think it demonstrates that even before we get to analogue or digital, you have to work so very hard to lay down and reproduce the material. There was nothing natural about their system and they should be ashamed of themselves! I can't tell you how much it detracted from the experience, it almost didn't feel like live theater. SHAME!... ok, rant over, as you were...grrrrrr....

    P.S. Sorry I missed the meet. I was in New York listening to an AURAL DISASTER!!!!!.... breathe....
     
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    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016

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