Putin's War With Ukraine (and democracy, freedom, self-determination, etc.)

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Feb 25, 2022.

  1. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    There are generally two reasons why they feel like that.
    1. Someone has actually mistreated them and they have every right to feel that way. People are dicks to one another and there are nationalist pricks who like to be mean. I've got no problem with this case.
    2. Then there are Russians who have chauvinist ambitions and think that everyone owes them respect as they represent Great Russia which won the war against the Nazis and Latvians/Estonians/... have no business asking them to know the local language, respect local customs and they will go the extra step to be dicks to us. And here's the kicker - "real" Russians from Russia don't really count them as the genuine article which makes them extra salty as they don't really belong anywhere.

    Our country is taking in Ukrainian war refugees and we are seeing ethnic tensions rise between local putinists (of every stripe, not just Russian). Actually the most fervent support for putinism comes from mixed families as they have more pronounced identity problems and thus they really deepthroat whatever Roskomnadzor throws their way. Unsurprisingly there is a great deal of overlap between the local antivax guard and pro-putinism as disenfranchised groups tend to be contrarian and oppose anything the government is doing. Some local populist figures have gone silent as the Kremlin has stopped financing them.

    In any case it does seem like this war is creating a more unified EU and I feel like there's more unity between Latvians as well. With the influx of Ukrainians we will have more allies to weed out Russian chauvinists or at least marginalize them. Some pro-Russian political parties have been forced to choose sides and they are constantly losing voters. Only one party has increased in popularity as it has sucked up all hardline putinists. It will be an interesting election this summer.
     
  2. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    This time around we will be shoulder-to-shoulder united. The disaster that happened after WW2 can not happen again. Our grandparents remember vividly the atrocities of Stalin. Fortunately the memory is still fresh. Putin attempts to be student of Stalin.

    We have helped Ukraine, they will help us back.
    Even when the Western EU (apart from UK) becomes too soft and scared of cold, the front line countries from EST, LV, LT, PL to Ukraine will be plenty to push the border back to Moscow outskirts when they have licked their wounds in 10+ years and are ready to try again.

    For the sake of stability in the region and to the well being of Russian people I hope the 'RaZZia' gets split into 3 or 5.
    There are few parts that could genuinely fit into Europe and other that fit better to Eastern part of the World.
    There is too much power in hands of too few. High levels of power tend to get corrupted and sinister.

    Prior to the Putin's 'special operations' I truly hoped and believed physical war on Europe ground will be thing of past.
    We should have better things to focus on. Climate change, contamination etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    The Russian chauvinists like to ignore that the Russian Empire and Soviet Union were huge multi-ethnic empires. Russians were less than 45% of the Russian Empire and barely a majority in the Soviet Union. Just like the Western colonial empires, without the minority populations, they would have had the manpower to win these wars. The Red Army had hundreds of thousands of Central Asians and desperately needed them at Stalingrad and Kursk.

    Russians from Russian proper, despite all of the propaganda from the Tsars and Putin, know that they are Russians and that the so called "little Russias" are not as Russian as them or not really Russian having been separated from them since the Mongols came. The dream to re-encapsulate the Kievan Rus under one polity and one ethnicity with one language, and of course modern Russian, is that, it itself, like all historical revisionism, wholly ahistorical.

    The Kievan Rus were separate city states ruled by descendants of Swedes who married their noble relatives back in Sweden all the time. They were Scandinavian enough that their contemporary Greek and Arabic writers couldn't tell them apart from other Vikings and used their ethnic demonyms interchangeably. There were even Englishmen in the Varangian Guard. The fact the the English weren't Viking at all, some were fleeing the Vikings, and now were in a military unit with a bunch of Scandinavian and Slavic men, meant nothing to the Roman Empire. It was not a mental dissonance to anyone at all.
     
  4. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    This ^ would be a an alliance for the 21st century in all the ways that count (i.e. culturally, politically, practically, etc.). The truth is NATO does not have your back because NATO is America. America has no interest, none, zip, nada, as to burning questions like whether countries such as Latvia, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, etc. are under Stalin, Putin, or Putin the IV in 2067. We just don't. Sure, it looked easy, almost inconsequential, for us in 1999/2004, and arrogant/hegemonic "super powers" tend to believe in their own vaporware shit. However the idea that America is going to risk real blood and treasure (let alone nuclear conflict) defending places like this is the stuff Disney movies, not reality. Truth is we are on the decline in several important ways, and in the next 100 years will have difficulty defending places that actually count to us.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
  5. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Five years ago in seminary I had to take an "ecclesiastical history of Ukraine" class. I don't remember 99% of it, but it really did read like a Michael Crichton novel. This or that (sainted!) women would hump her way to this or that alliance, ending or starting this or that civil war. The idea that Eastern Europe is prepared for the Classical Liberal legacy of Jefferson's 'Homer reading Unitarian farmers' is just so much delusional bullshit...
     
  6. Zampotech

    Zampotech Friend

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    The bus driver locked himself in the cab. He does not go along the route, but to where he needs to go, drives into oncoming traffic, runs a red light, crashes into everyone in a row. And if the passengers are outraged, then their conductor hammers with a baton.
     
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  7. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    An apt analogy... good to hear from you!
     
  8. mediumroast

    mediumroast Rando

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    This is such Bullshit. Get over yourself.
     
  9. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    Way to add to e discussion. If you feel that strongly, then state reasons
     
  10. mediumroast

    mediumroast Rando

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    Waste of time. It really is. In a world of 8 billion people I dont have to be here. Enjoy you discussion. Good bye!
     
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  11. mediumroast

    mediumroast Rando

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    Ok, I am going to explain before I exit this chat. The Nato is USA statement. We have to fix that right?

    A weak, shallow statement from the people who kinda lobbied it to be that way. Like I have the power but when push comes to show I am all nothing bs. After Merkel-ism, I doubt Europe is ever going to try to rely on anyone on defense much in the future.

    It is correct to say that USA is the bigger player in military, but to say that it is the only country is cringe and just plain lying. I was surprised to see how many modern ships European countries have. Plus I believe they have the technology and know-how to make advanced stuff if they need more.


    I guess more healthy competition is needed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2022
  12. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    Yes, thanks. Opinions is different here too of course. But I do not feel like having "Putin = Hitler" attitude will help anything. I have hard time speaking with some old time friends on the matter.

    Speaking of the west sources, I found this write-up a good one https://www.theamericanconservative...revent-the-war-will-it-now-prevent-the-peace/
    I'm not sure how this site is regarded by you, but it is personal opinion of a person anyway.

    USA could to a large extent prevent the escalation, it held a lot of influence over the Kiev officials. Unfortunately, they only made it worse.
    That is what I said if you read closely. I never said it was the best option. It is a bad situation for everyone here. But the problem is, with the time passed, the situation became worse, and good options are disappearing the more time passes.
    The worst thing is - I'm afraid if you take Putin out of it by some miracle, any other leader of Russia might take a similar decision at some point. May be not today. May be later a year or two... It is just how the situation goes.
    Or Ukraine could start an operation to restore control upon Donetsk and Lugansk as well. After all, they were constantly rocking up their military forces in the region. They say they now hold around 250k people there, which is more than Russia pushed in, as far as I saw in reports.
    I'm not sure I'm ready to translate the whole document, or make a complete analysis here. It is a lot of work after all. But let me try to explain based on western article, which I think is fairly on point, with minor biased points.
    https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-60310843 It is on Russian, I hope google translate will suffice? I will leave Russian quotes here so you may find it in the text there.
    Not only Russia said it is the only way, everyone was talked about that, that there is no alternative. Kiev themself agreed on that several times
    Well, many think the conflict is between Russia and USA, just on Ukraine territory. Or even between China and USA. I find such talks besides the point. It was written in the document which you signed out.
    A ceasefire was reportedly violated on both sides. One can't stop shooting if another one continues. OSCE had reports about Kiev firings. But it is not a primary concern.
    So Kiev wants to speak with people selected by Kiev. I do not feel like this position is any better. Why - it will become apparent down the line.
    Now this is the main question. But it is strictly answered in the text of the agreement:
    Restore control of the state border to the Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfilment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
    So why it is being discussed at all? Yes, Kiev do not like it. But he signed it.
    It is not unique to the Ukrainian constitution, Crimea had autonomous status too. Yes, I understand that you may argue that it is what lead to its annexation. But I do not think so, it made it more legitimate, but that's all. If Russia wanted to take Donestks and Lugansk, it could do so in 2015. No, the better decision would be for it to stay Ukrainian but with the power to influence it's politics. I also understand that "Russia influence" is considered evil by the most on the west, but let me explain a bit.
    Since the dissolution of the soviet union, Ukrainian started slowly but steadily to promote nationalism by denying everything Russian. It is a slow process, and it is somewhat peaked in 2014 with questions around the status of Russian language, which, i hope everyone knows, most of Ukraine speaks. Even officials speak Russian in everyday life when they are not on TV.
    This is another large topic which, I'm afraid will take to much effort to cover, I simply can't do it right. Simply put, Russian-speaking people who did not want to change the language they speak were feeling oppressed. It sound like Russian propaganda maybe, but it happened. I want to stress, It does not mean those people wanted to be Russians! Most people wanted to stay Ukrainians, but continue speaking Russian language without fear.
    Could Russia just close it's eyes to this and do not take any effort to deal with the situation? How would Russian people accept the inactions of its leaders, if they just ignored it?

    So making elections before Ukraininan control has indeed had security reasons besides just russian influence. Kiev repotedly refused to make a complete amnesty on those territories for those involved in fighting, which implies he has aim to punish pro-russian people. Given existing radical nationalist movements, which is another big topic, this could end up VERY badly. Could Russia just give up on people who relied on her? Making Ukraine a complete hold of its election would mean exactly this.

    Again, the more I cover the topic, the more I'm afraid to write because I have the feeling that each next sentence will require more and more explanation of it's own...
     
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    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  13. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I wouldn't say that. I couldn't possibly say that: I don't understand enough of what @crenca posts!

    As I might have said before, I am deeply fed up with the many, many statements which come from a presumption that there is only one other country in the world: USA. All of them ignore the rest of Europe and Asia (although China gets an occasional mention); some of them almost ignore Ukraine itself.

    Dear mostly-American members... Primarily, it is not you guys here that I am getting at. It's widespread. A lot of my Indian correspondents are discussing this with premises such as NATO=USA; the only other country in the world is America; America started all this; this is America's war; this is all America v Russia.

    America is big, loud, powerful, yes. But America is not all. Even if it wants to be.
     
  14. mediumroast

    mediumroast Rando

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    Yeah man. Learning from other cultures is super important for personal development. I admire the Asian countries who can mange with very little but still live a happy life. I kind of admire this small country called Buthan. Their economy takes in more CO than they put out and the people are relatively happy and living a sustainable life. It isnt all fun and games but it is working.

    Dont need plastic surgery, 10 million mansion and security team. It isn't about undoing your country but seeing that there are hundred ways to live your life. I love nature and the mountains. I need to travel more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  15. mediumroast

    mediumroast Rando

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    Dude, cant waste time on online forums on nonsense. It is way better to get on a call with people and have genuine conversation. I am mostly communicating on voice applications, might make a friend or two. I sick and tired of these info streams and do not take them seriously. For me online interactions are more about what excess do I leave behind I am good atm.
     
  16. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    I did the cross-cultural thing. An old Brit, I came to live in India sixteen years ago. I'm a city boy, and I am not much familiar with the villages and rural life of India, where things might be a bit different. But I can say that people are people and this difference thing is often exaggerated and romanticised. Of the poor people that I know, I can say that the thing that matters to most to them is surviving, and that they would very, very much like to be not poor. I used to have a fairly bad view of "western" education, having not thought much of my own at all, but that's changed, as I've seen people living in one small room being able to send their children to school. My wife used to do small-scale charity, finding sponsors for the education of such children. The son of one such family is now a bank manager.

    I loved it when the Dalai Lama said, "The happiness of my people is more important than the GDP of my country." Yes, I've heard great things about the people of Bhutan. But bottom line is food in the stomach, and everyone want more and wants more choice. And when the stomach is full comes a bigger TV, and a motor bike, then a car.

    People are not so different.
     
  17. mediumroast

    mediumroast Rando

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    I sent you a PM.
     
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  18. YMO

    YMO Scatologically ribald obsessive

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    I like dark roast.
     
  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    I actually agree with the above. USA could have done a lot to make the situation better, starting from 2004. I always say: how would we have felt if Warsaw Pact make it all the way to Canada or Mexico? Putin was actually very clear with that he wanted and what he as going to do. No one in the West believed him. Zelenskyy could have been more pragmatic and not poked the Russian bear in the eye. Unfortunately, that's all in the past and it's too late now.

    Basically, I see diplomatic failure on all parties. No one wanted to compromise. History will of course be written by the victors, if there are any. Maybe after a generation or two, we will have a better idea.

    I know Ukrainians who feel this is a proxy war between USA and Russia, yet at the same time they are asking for donations for Ukraine military to fight! It's a very odd situation.

    P.S. I am pissed though. I've always wanted more Russian gear into the US, to promote the stuff because it's good. (I mean no one else, none of the mainstream sites, want to promote it). Common interests between people from far away. We had talked about ideas to visit Zampotech and party. I guess that idea is shot, at least in the near term. I'll be too old and dead by the time things settle down. That's all a dream now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  20. CEE TEE

    CEE TEE MOT: NITSCH

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    ^Yes, someday hope to visit @Zampotech . May peace and that day come.
     

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