Putin's War With Ukraine (and democracy, freedom, self-determination, etc.)

China also has a real economy and they don’t want to lose it. 20% of gdp is exports. 17% is imports. Despite all the nationalism calls for self-reliance, their government debt is very high, they don’t have a youth bulge, a major war with lots of casualties would hugely affect it and challenge the CCP’s doctrine of having restored China to prosperity that it mostly had except for late antiquity, the high Middle Ages when the Mongols took over, end of the Ming and the Manchu conquest, and late 18th through late 20 centuries. A huge amount of casualties would be devastating and the loss of at least Taiwanese money and industry would condemn many parts of China back to rural poverty.

Russian doesn’t have that level of myth making. Restore the glory of the Russian Empire? How? The Russian Empire came to power by modernizing and beating another crazy aggressive conquest empire, the Swedish Empire. The USSR main claim to legitimacy was Stalin in his paranoia claimed war with the capitalist west would come, the biggest war ever arrived on his doorstep of a guy killing even more people than he was, and his army won in the end.

How can Putin accumulate such glory? Taking over vulnerable chunks of his neighbors like Louis XIV? He did that and all it got Russia was sanctions. Louis failed to take Spain. Putin failed to take one of the poorest large countries in Europe and left thousands of bodies in his wake.

Russia’s population has been shrinking for a while, it’s economically weaker than almost all prior Russian state, it decidedly does not have a youth bulge, and the oligarchs got their wealth from stealing it from the people and state rather than through service to the state like Russian feudalism.

 

Instead Putin joins the ranks of despots who left piles of bodies around Eastern Europe. He’s no Trajan, Ogedei Khan, or Basil the Bulgar Slayer. There was no promise of trade and prosperity should the Ukrainians have surrendered to their new overlord. Rather impoverishment. The Romans built roads and the Mongols had personal checks in the Middle Ages.

 

Good story, fair reporting and probably a very typical story of what happens in every war. The sooner people understand that events like this are inevitable and collateral damage can never be avoided, the better.

The term war crimes is an oxymoron - war is crime...

 

Apparently (should I say allegedly?) there is recorded Russian-soldier radio chat about shooting Ukraine soldiers and civilians. Perfectly believable, just as it is perfectly believable that all Ukrainians have not been perfect gentlemen.

But the stuff that is coming from Russia and its media agents seems to be a long, long stream of lies. Really, they should be more selective.

 

Alternative view https://waronfakes.com/bucha/
As a Russian, who also follow some Ukrainian bloggers, and having friends there both on occupied and non-occupied territory, I highly doubt it took place as it being shown (if at all) actually. There is simply no reason at all. And, I'm not sure what western media tells, we do not hate Ukraine or it's people, on the contrary, many do not draw a line between them and russians. So killing ukrainian civilians is like killing russian civilians for most people, army included. No benefits that I can see from doing that.

 

I see the same from western media as a russian. They are telling stuff about my country that is just laughable sometimes. Looks legit from the distance I guess.

 

Yes, there will be. But Butcha is being "marketed" as something special. If it happened at all.

No, I will not. But I'm quite sure, Putin does not want to occupy it, even if it will happen in the end. Everyone would prefer it to stay neutral territory. There were many chances to make it happen. In the end, it all makes me sad too. No sane person ever want a war, its not middle ages.

May be I should not read this thread. Just opened it because it appeared among the recent topics.

 

Mainly it on Russian. This is international part, where most important things are being translated. What of it? It seems you do not trust anything that comes from Russia?

I was under this belief all my youngth. It slowly drifted in the last 10 or so years that I read what is being written by many of the western media about the events around my country. Possibly WSJ is reputable, but it too had mistakes. I do not take any mainstream media for granted nowdays.

Its not the world. It is EU and USA. Yes, we are dealing with it.
Okay, it is starting to be really aggressive. I'm not here for an internet war. It is more personal for me than anybody here, I have many friends there. Still, I was under impression that an opinion from someone who is nearby would be of interest, seems not. Sorry.

 

Dude are you f'ing kidding me?

 

Yes, it started during the war. What are you trying to prove? You can watch videos and make your own research. Videos are not made by Russians there.
All the media around me is oversaturated with fakes. You have no idea what is going here. I was called by phone from Moldova number and robot told me something like "this is central bank of russia, sell you roubles now or it will be worse". Fakes are everywhere. Information war is going over the top around here. It is true. So sites like this appear. I'm not saying it is all true. But it may rise some questions. Or not.

 

As you mentioned, it is paywalled. Even if I want, there is no way to pay for it from Russia now
Thanks for a summary. I'm not drawing my final conclusions where if happened or not happened right now. But I'm very tired of emotional bullshit being poured on us every day. Ukraininan blogger with 3mil. with an active (now banned) political party is gathering info about it now. Already had some stories from his subscribers posted on his telegram channel about this situation, but unfortunately they do not portrait a clear picture as well as of now.

Well, I do not think he is winning, it is a bit more complicated. Main fight are expected to be next week from what I see. There it will be decided, most likely.

 

I do not think anyone will disagree with this. I'm not talking that Russia is an angel savior. But this situation looks questionable to me.

 

I understand your intent. And I appreciate your intent, too. This is just an opinion piece, but i feel it helped shed some light from a Russian ex-patriot perspective:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...l-teach-ordinary-russians-some-german-lessons

I hope anyone you know is not or has not been in harm's way throughout this, but I also hope you take some time to read or watch some well validated reporting on what's actually going on in the region. Yes, we're not in concentration camp territory here, but the misinformation needs to be actively subverted when it puts ordinary citizens of any country at risk for potential mass murder.

 

Thanks.
I know this opinion, yes. Can agree to some points from that article, but only some. The problem is, western media loves to post stories of ex-patriots, and I do not think I ever saw a story of ex-protester for example. Must be some, feel free to correct me, but seems to be an absolute minority. That's why I feel western media is biased as well.