Schiit Yggdrasil new flavours (Less is More, More is Less)

Schiit announced the new flavors of Yggdrasil based on Multibit DAC chips from TI.

From the product page:
“Yes. Now, Yggdrasil is available in three different “flavors,” including two that (gasp) cost less than the original, and provide higher performance! Yes, we know. We’re super weird.

• Yggdrasil Less is More. Even better performance for lower cost. The most affordable Yggdrasil uses four TI DAC8812 16-bit D/A converters. Many think this is the best sounding flavor, hence less bits, more better…less is more.
• Yggdrasil More is Less. The best-measuring integrated multibit DAC, ever. This Yggdrasil uses four TI DAC11001 20-bit D/A converters. If you’re one who thinks multibit DACs can’t measure well, this one’s for you—approaching -120dB THD+N.
• Yggdrasil OG. The Yggdrasil you’ve loved for years, same as it ever was. The original Yggdrasil with four AD5791 20-bit D/A converters remains in the line, because it provides an exceptionally engaging performance.”

Blind listening impressions from the FAQ page:

Chris Connaker
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/new-schiit-yggdrasil-blind-listening-comparison-r1045/

Brian Hunter
https://audio-head.com/review-schiit-yggdrasil-og-vs-less-is-more-vs-more-is-less/

Gary Barker
https://headphone.guru/ <-can’t link directly due to “Yggiy” in the URL.

For those who don’t want to go to Headfi to read the chapter, find it here:

Spoiler

2021, Chapter 12
Get Schifty


The heliocentric model, that’s one of them.

As in, an idea that was a super hard sell, because most everyone knew it was wrong. I mean, you could watch the moon and stars and sun circle ‘round the earth, yourself. Like, duh.

Or plate tectonics.

Another super hard pill to swallow, that maybe the top bits of the earth slide around like the skin of an overroasted onion. How could that ever be a thing?

Or the CT scanner.

No, seriously. Look it up. When you’re not an MD and quit school at 16, even a revolutionary medical technology was a hard pill to swallow for the medical powers-that-be.

“So what the heck are you on about, Stoddard?” you ask. “And, more importantly, what does this have to do with the three Yggdrasil models I now see on your website? Are you nuts? Why isn’t there a single clear path? Why do they cost less? Why can’t you be like everyone else and promise me I’ll hear unicorns and see god without drugs for only a 50% increase in price?”

Exactly.

“What do you mean, ‘exactly?’” you ask.

My grin just gets wider.

Now you’re irritated. “Why you standing there, all smug-looking?”

Again, exactly.

New ideas are hard to embrace. For years—decades, actually—we’ve been told there is One True Path in audio, from the old model to the new. But now we’re saying, “ah, nah, maybe not…maybe once you get to this level of performance, you’re really talking about system synergies, or, to be blunt, flavors.”

Maybe there isn’t one true path. Maybe there are many.

Eeeek! New idea. Scary scary.

Worse, maybe some of these new paths don’t have to cost as much. Now, that’s totally bonkers, because the new thing, being better, should always cost more, right?

So yeah, I understand these new Yggdrasil flavors—and even the descriptor, ‘flavors,’ are challenging and weird and unsettling because they don’t hew to the audiophile dogma. I get it when you protest this is wayyy lessss easssssyyy than pulling out the card for the single One True Best thing.

But this is what we truly believe, based on developing, measuring, and listening to 10 variations on the Yggdrasil analog cards. In all of that development, and all of that testing, we found a universal truth: different people like different things. Or different DACs work better in different systems.

And, when you think about it, isn’t that much more likely to be true than the dogma of the One New and Perfect thing?

I mean, seriously. Either:

• Every audio manufacturer since the beginning of time has managed to come up with something unambiguously better—every time, for everyone, or
• It’s only been portrayed that way.

Considering the periodic rediscovery of “audio greats of the past,” that include 30-year-old multibit DACs, epic Class A amplifiers, tube gear from the Sinatra age, and more turntables than you can shake a stick at…

…hmmm…

Considering the likelihood of pleasing everyone, every time, with one thing…

…hmmm times two…

Considering the plausibility of these earth-shattering new models being much more expensive, even if the parts look about the same…

…hmmm times a billion…

So. Yeah. Maybe it is time to admit that it’s really about flavors. After all, not everyone likes chocolate.

Or vanilla.

Or coriander-infused peach sour stevia-sweetened goat’s butt…ah hell, you know what I’m saying.


What Flavors?

Maybe I should have led with this. But I like being contrary.

Yggdrasil is now not a single product. It’s three:

• Yggdrasil Less is More. The lowest cost new-production Yggdrasil ever. The most affordable Yggdrasil uses four TI DAC8812 16-bit D/A converters to deliver even better measured performance than the original. Many think this is the best sounding flavor, hence less bits, more better…less is more. $2199
• Yggdrasil More is Less. The best-measuring integrated multibit DAC, ever. This Yggdrasil uses four TI DAC11001 20-bit D/A converters. If you’re one who thinks multibit DACs can’t measure well, this one’s for you—approaching -120dB THD+N. It takes all the records of golden-age parts like the PCM63 and nukes them from orbit. $2349
• Yggdrasil OG: The Yggdrasil you’ve loved for years, same as it ever was. The original Yggdrasil with four AD5791 20-bit D/A converters remains in the line, because it provides an exceptionally engaging performance. $2599

“Ah, wait a sec, what’s this More is Less thing?” someone is asking. “The best-measuring integrated multibit DAC, ever? Isn’t that worth shouting about? Isn’t that the clear upgrade?”

Yes. It is. And if we were nothing more than a marketing company, it would be dead-easy to take this model, compare it against Yggdrasil OG on the APx555, and declare a new era in multibit performance. Because it is.

But a funny thing happened on the way to this perfect world.

Namely, some people preferred the Less is More version—with 16-bit DACs! And some stubbornly hung on to the Yggdrasil OG. And that’s why we ended up with, ah, flavors.


The Long, Long Road to Yggdrasil Flavors

Anyone who knows us, knows that we usually start working on a next-generation product immediately upon finishing the current one. They also know that these next-generation products don’t always pan out; in fact, many of them don’t see the light of day.

So, after Yggdrasil Analog 2 was introduced, we immediately started asking, “What more can we do with this?”

Dave liked integrated amplification and summing, rather than the Yggdrasil Analog 2’s discrete buffers and summers.

Mike wanted to try some really offbeat stuff, like going to lower-bit D/A converters, when that really didn’t make sense from the perspective of Yggdrasil = more bits.

I had crazy ideas about pasting DACs together and other stuff that really didn’t work.

And, in the end, we tried all of those, and more. We literally have 10 different Yggdrasil variants on the prototype shelf. OG is “2.01,” Less is More is “3.02,” and More is Less is “7.03,” in case anyone is keeping count. No, you don’t want 4, 5, 6, 8, or 9. Jury’s out on 10. Maybe in a couple of years. We’re not going to keep throwing flavors at you just for the heck of it.



Above: The Yggdrasil reveal.

When the time came for the big reveal, first David had to figure out which binary code corresponded to what position on the dial, then he had to take the cheat sheet from Denise to decode which Yggdrasil was which.

The result?

• X was More is Less
• Y was Less is More
• Z was OG

This caused some excitement and consternation amongst the reviewers, because they liked Y and Z the best—and especially Y.

“I chose the cheap one?” one asked, laughing.

There was even more surprise when I reminded them they were listening to three DACs that differed in measured performance by 35dB, from the lowest to the highest—surprise they sounded as much alike as they did, and surprise the preference didn’t track the measurements.

But nobody was really miffed. And Mike and Dave were grinning, because they’d already publically called it while David and I were in the room listening.

Aside: again, it took them like 5 minutes to do this.

There was some horror, however, when I revealed that my favorite was More is Less, AKA “the measurement DAC,” AKA the one Mike and Dave did under protest, AKA the one that one of the reviewers said he never wanted to hear again.

“Funny, because OG is the one I never wanted to hear again,” I told them.

Cue the gasps, because OG was the top on at least one list.

Hey, you know, I don’t care. Either I’m the only person in the world that likes coriander and goat’s ass flavor, or there’s something here for everyone.
Aside: or, more likely, it really depends on the music you like, and might need to be integrated over longer experiences to really take. I’m writing this after listening to More is Less for an evening, and I stand by my choice. But if I did more female vocals, maybe Less is More is better. Or, in other words, flavors.

In any case, here’s what the three intrepid reviewers think of the test:

Chris Connaker
https://audiophile.style/Yggdrasil
Brian Hunter
https://audio-head.com/review-schiit-yggdrasil-og-vs-less-is-more-vs-more-is-less/
Gary Barker
https://headphone.guru/a-day-at-the-schiitr-schiit-launches-three-flavors-of-Yggdrasil/


Blame Me

Is it some weird quirk of fate that I chose the More is Less? It might be, because I’m the one who pressured Mike and Dave to do it.

Or, more accurately, I was approached by a very excited engineer from TI, who said they had these super-cool new 20-bit multibit DACs, and they might be really interesting for audio, and would we like to try them out?

On first glance, the TI DAC11001 seems quite a bit like the AD5791 we’d been using in Yggdrasil since the start, but the assertion that “they might be interesting for audio” was, ahem, unexpected.

And when they included a distortion plot of a 1K sine that wasn’t on the AD5791 datasheet—and looked really good, I quickly paged back to the Stereophile reviews of Theta gear using the PCM63—the grand mack daddy of all audio DACs, the one that John Atkinson said was the best-measuring DAC, ever, at that time—and saw something wayyy better than that, I got excited.

So I got samples and bugged Mike and Dave to take a look. They were less than thrilled, with Mike grumbling about sample and holds and Dave not super happy with the formatting coming into the DAC (we are familiar with stupid/non-audio-DAC formatting, but TI was a new flavor of crazy).

And the first prototypes really didn’t measure all that well. Nor did Mike and Dave seem to like the sound.

But I pressed, and they changed the firmware, and suddenly we had, well, the best-measuring DAC we’d ever made. The best-measuring multibit DAC based on an integrated IC, too. I mean, it really trounces the measurements of past greats based on the PCM63 or PCM1704, (at least as far as I know).



Above: not your typical multibit DAC, measurements-wise.

Mike and Dave still weren’t happy with the sound, so we did some listening tests with the DAC11001 prototypes at Schiit, throwing in the 3.02 (DAC8812) and 5.00 boards (the supposedly “improved” AD5791) as well as the OG. I remember at the time thinking the DAC11001 wasn’t bad, but the 3.02 was warmer and happier, the 5.00 was horrid (the universal consensus) and the OG was also good.

And, to cut a very long story short, after much wrangling with these results, that’s how the flavors came to be. I really wanted the DAC11001 for proof that we could take True Multibit forward on a measurement basis, Mike liked the DAC8812 because it was most natural, and Dave liked the OG.

And other listeners were similarly mixed, as I mentioned before.

“So let’s make all of them,” one of us finally said.

That’s crazy, I remember thinking. Without a single path—especially a single more expensive path—how would people react?

I mean, choosing either the DAC8812 or the DAC11001 as “the new Yggdrasil” would give us a dead-easy pitch:

“Choose the new Yggdrasil Analog 3 based on the DAC8812, and experience an even better Yggdrasil at lower cost, with the best measurements of any Yggdrasil.”

Or

“Choose the Yggdrasil Analog 3 based on the DAC11001 and experience the best-measuring integrated multibit DAC ever.”

Hell, we could have simply binned both new versions and restarted marketing around Yggdrasil OG, reminding people that it’s the DAC that started the new charge back to multibit—and, unlike some competitors, it doesn’t cost 50-100% more than it used to.

But we’re not about doing the normal. We’re Schiit. We do weird things. Paradigm schifty things.

So I made up a couple of silly names, and we decided to do all of them.

And that’s how you got flavors.

We really hope you enjoy them…or at least one of them!

Summary of pricing (as of launch, Sept 2021):

• LiM: $2199
• MiL: $2349
• OG: $2599

And for the upgrades:

• LiM: $450
• MiL: $550
• OG: $750

 

Interesting stuff!
I hope that some review units head to the UK, would love to try these.

 

FWIW the Gary Barker headphone-guru link leads to a 404. can find by searching "yggdrasil" in the search bar though.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/new-schiit-yggdrasil-blind-listening-comparison-r1045/

 

Both fixed, thanks! (Sort of, the Gary Barker can’t be fixed becuase of auto-correct by the site of the shortened version of Yggdrasil - can add a bit.ly link later.)

 

It's funny that I really want to see you guys' review, while I'm definitely buying a "Less is More" (Ludwig Mies van der Rohe!!!) for my A1 unit.

 

I’m extremely tempted to sell a whole lot of gear and go all in on a Less is More after reading those.

Also I found it interesting that they used a Ragnarok as a preamp instead of a Freya. Any particular reason for that choice @schiit?

 

Here are all the sound impressions excerpts from those 3 comparisons:

Audio Head - Brian Hunter

Spoiler

Less Is More
The least expensive option of the three managed to pull off the smoothest top end. Described by some as the most musical, the LIM sporting 4 Texas Instrument DAC chips perhaps also carried the least amount of treble energy in the process. There was no lack of total summed detail or degradation, but its performance could be perceived as having less top end then the others. This could also be translated as having a more rich or accessible mid range and bass, which may account for some of the votes for “most musical”.

More Is Less
The best measuring chipset of the bunch played music with a little more bite to the top end, and across the spectrum. What could also be described as a slightly more gritty feel than either of the other two options, the MIL was more similar to the OG option than the LIM. On many fronts, the Less Is More option could easily be interchanged with the current model, with only slight variations in the overall feel and texture relayed. Aforementioned “grit” could also be translated as “more detail” to some, as the delivery was never stressed to the point of fatigue or any notable deterioration to the sonic information. Best, or personal preference awards were very close between MIL and OG from this reviewer’s perspective.

Yggdrasil OG
The biggest surprise in the final reveal was that my impressions of the current model Yggdrasil led me to prefer it the most. It should be mentioned that I do not currently own a Yggrdasil (either variation) and likely have little to no experience with the house sound here. Listening to music from audiophile Jazz mainstays to Peg by Dire Straits, the Schiit Yggdrasil OG appeared with just slightly more body, balance and a hint of detail. The result felt like the most engaging presentation with lively mids and upper ranges. By comparison, there was almost a greater aggregate tonal density than the other two DACs, that could also be perceived as vibrant to some, but possibly still too aggressive for others (especially those who preferred the smoother LIM – which many listeners did).

Summary
If nothing sounds broken, then how do we choose? Well in the tale of the three new Yggdrasil, one might argue that a certain smoothness and ease of listening is going to really speak to individuals who prefer a more natural non-fatiguing listen. Thusly translated as “more real” or “musical” in this scenario. If you look for as much information and detail as can be stuffed into the pipeline, then that alternatively could be your benchmark for what is real as well. I will say that in some cases, all the information you could ever hope for won’t save you from an overall bad sound.

The easy and best sounding story for any of these comparisons is the little guy (in this case the cheapest) overcomes the most expensive goliath in the room. For this tale, that low hanging fruit unfortunately wasn’t the case for these reviewer’s ears. It seems that Mike Moffat and company did a stellar job with the latest version of the Yggdrasil ($2,599). If you are looking to save a little money on the purchase, I would recommend the Schiit Yggdrasil More Is Less ($2,349). For the most analog sounding device of the three, the Less Is More ($2,199). This is perhaps the biggest trick of the whole experience in a nutshell, for more tubelike experiences rarely measure the best. But obviously there is a whole lot more articulating in the wheelhouse here, and once again the changes here are very small. This opens it all up to personal preference a little more and hopefully, just a little more fun.

Headphone Guru - Gary Alan Barker

Spoiler

So I guess you are now wondering how the test turned out, was one superior to the rest, or is it really a question of taste? Well, I picked out the Less is More almost immediately, but on the other hand, got the More is Less and the OG reversed. This was because the More is Less reminded me most of the original Frankenstein produced back in the ‘80s. To be more specific the More is Less was harder, more detailed, less forgiving, (think of the SABRE DAC or a Brickwall filter) when the piano on the recording Chris was demoing with clipped the microphone it was real noticeable. Whereas the Less is More is extremely musical, hence more forgiving (think of the AKM DAC or an Infinite Impulse Response filter). As things would have it, the OG falls directly in the middle.

And this is where blind A/B tests (even double-blind tests) fall down. You hear the differences, and those differences color your response. Even though we didn’t know which was which, the order we listened to them fell out as More is Less, Less is More, OG. The stark difference between the More is Less and the Less is More made the Less is More almost sound veiled (though the Less is More had a slightly deeper bass extension and was more natural sounding with low male voices, though admittedly I didn’t know the voices in question so I didn’t factor that into my decision), hence I picked the OG as the happy medium between the two. I suspect with more isolated testing I would probably pick the Less is More as I tend to lean towards more musical.

As to the original premise of the test, it fell out pretty evenly with Mike and Chris preferring the Less is More, Brian and myself preferring the OG, and Jason the More is Less.

Audiophile Style - Chris Connaker

Spoiler

Let's cut to the final chase scene before going over the nuances of listening to each DAC. By far, my favorite version is Yggdrasil Less Is More. That's right, the least expensive model, with the least number of bits (16 bit DAC chips, 17 bits total), sounded the best. It wasn't even close. The second place DAC was Yggdrasil OG, the original Yggdrasil that I've listened to for years in my system. My least favorite DAC was Yggdrasil More is Less. You read that right, the best measuring multi bit DAC ever, sounded the worst to me. This conclusion wasn't a close call.

My preference
1. Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199)
2. Yggdrasil OG ($2,599)
3. Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349)

My notes about each DAC range from high praise to describing one as a "jumbled mess." Here are some specifics about what I listened to and what I heard.

My top pick, Yggdrasil Less Is More, was better in every sense of the word. Listening to Jack Johnson's track Flake (16 bit / 48 kHz remaster by Bernie Grundman), the steel drum was really clear at low volume and had great separation between mallet strikes. The Yggdrasil OG was also good, but not as good. Through Yggdrasil More is Less, cymbals sounded harsh, and drums sounded as if they were recorded in a box. Keep in mind that this is all relative. Each DAC in isolation is probably fantastic. But, compared to each other with the flick of a switch, these differences are very easy to spot and stick out like a sore thumb.

Listening to Midnight Sugar by the Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio game me more of the same information about each DAC.
Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The sound was 100% appropriate, in that it can be sharp or mellow and everything in between. This DAC didn't editorialize. When the piano started on this track, I leaned back and said "Yes." The sound put me at ease, relaxed me, and was absolutely right. The DAC has great bass extension with articulation and solidity. The piano hammer strikes at roughly 2:20 into the track sounded fantastic. It's hard to want more from a DAC than this Yggdrasil can give.
Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - The original Yggdrasil was good on this track, but not at the same level as the Less is More DAC. Bass was a touch boomy, but not loose. I heard the slightest touch of a synthetic sound in the mid to low frequencies of the piano compared to my favorite version of the Yggdrasil. None of this is audible when listening in isolation and I've never heard this on my own system. But, under direct comparison, it was there for one's ears to hear.
Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - OK, I'll say it, what a disappointment for me. I hear blur in the midrange, extra crispy high frequencies, and harsh hammer strikes. Despite this DAC's measurement bonafides, I'm not a fan of its sound. It offered no redeeming qualities for me. This wasn't the case for others listening, but at this level of performance it's really about taste.

Listening to Shelby Lynne's track Like a Fool provided more of the same information.
Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199) - The acoustic guitar was natural, sounded great, and real. Everything on this track sounded right.
Yggdrasil OG ($2,599) - Shelby's vocal was good and the drums had good air / space around them. One thing I noticed with this track through the Yggdrasil OG was it sounded a bit slow. That's a tough one to articulate better, but it just lacked the pace I expected.
Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349) - The measuring champ sounded "better on this track than the other tracks," according to my notes, but one key aspect that I noted was a lack of balance. Instruments seemed to pop out unnaturally as if I was listening to the sonic equivalent of an HDR photo that may be neat at first but nothin like the real event it was supposed to document.

Putting some classical through the Yggdrasils was no different. This is where I wrote "jumbled mess" for the Yggdrasil More is Less ($2,349). It just sounded congested to me, as if the details were lost. I could hear everything through Yggdrasil Less Is More ($2,199), and in typical Yggdrasil OG fashion I heard tons string texture through this DAC. Keep in mind that I had no cue which DAC was which while listening and taking these notes.

What I mixed up was identifying the new Yggdrasil DACs. After so many years of having measurements beat into my head, I assumed the DAC I absolutely loved would be the best measuring Yggdrasil and the DAC that was a "jumbled mess" to me, would be the least expensive 17 bit Yggdrasil. When it was revealed that the $2,199 Yggdrasil Less is More was easily my favorite DAC, my mind was a bit blown. How could this be? It's "only" 17 bits? It measures better than the original Yggdrasil, but not as good as the the more expensive Yggdrasil More is Less.

These question lead to a wonderful discussion with Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard as we sat around The Schiitr. I walked away from this experience more disillusioned with traditional measurements than I've ever been. Yes, measurements are great when designing products, but they are one data point among many others. Each of these three Yggdrasil DACs measures really good, but one is the best measuring multi bit DAC ever made. What does that even mean beyond the fact that it's the best measuring multi bit DAC ever made? In my opinion, it means nothing beyond the statement alone.

The Conclusion
My conclusions, especially the part about the DAC that made me sit back in the chair and feel at ease, were nearly identical with someone else who knows a thing or two about each of the DACs. When he described this immediate relaxed feeling to me, I looked at my notes and my eyes got as large as dinner plates. It's like he was reading my notes, even though he was too busy talking outside the room during the entire time I was listening and writing.

I've requested the $2,199 Yggdrasil Less is More for review because it was clearly the best sounding DAC at The Schiitr that day. My words may seem like objective statements of fact, but in reality being the "best sounding" can only be subjective. I'm sure others will find much more enjoyment in one or both of the other Yggdrasils, but that's the beauty of having options. At this level of performance, it really is about personal preference.

 

Even in buffer mode? Or a Freya S at 1x? Interesting.

 

Purchased a LiM w/ overnight shipping. Was waiting for this to be available. I'm very hopeful. Moving my BF2 to my desk and this will be my main system World Tree.

 

Mike preferred Less is More (which you can probably deduce by the name).

Jason ended up preferring the More is Less in the blind test.

and Dave apparently prefers the OG (A2)

 

I'm so far away from being at this level, but it's still a fascinating read (as is purr1n's impressions thread). I know gear "goes up from here", but I'm not sure if these subtle impressions at this price level comfort me about the increasingly small nuances to the choice; or frighten me even more of making the "wrong" choice if I reach this price point.

 

Made an interesting comparative plot regarding distortion ratios. All values from Schiit's official measurements on balanced outs.


(Y axis means decibels to the fundamental signal)

MIL's results weirdly good and beautifully-shaped (not only for this chart but also across all measurement criteria) no matter whether it's due to dither or any black tricks.

If I didn't get 2541 early this year, I might adventure into MIL myself. Heresy wasn't my cup of tea, but it feels like MIL might be different... Holo and Kitsune already made dacs that measure great and sound amazing. If things done right (so let's rule out all shit-generators first), there can be something really good if not universally perfect.

 

I don’t like options on converters. The manufacturer should pick the best chip, analog stage, power supply, and filter.

Schiit should come up with new product names. Norse mythology has a lot of crazy stuff.

 

Check out those amirbits on MiL

 

I mean, if nothing else, that is an amazing technical achievement.

 

Read the conclusions that EagleWings posted to save time but one said Mike preferred LIM which was surprising as I swear at one point Schiit said he preferred OG and Dave was the one who preferred LIM.