Dune (Denis Villeneuve)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by purr1n, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    ^ This. Basically a Chinese tiger mom type. Devoted to her husband, devoted to her son even more. To the extent that she was willing to fully leverage the primitive religious beliefs* of the Freman toward Space Wahhabi Fundamentalism Jihad to ensure the survival of herself and her son.

    *No Jungian or Joseph "Penchant for the Obvious" Campbell subconscious archetype stuff here. The Bene Gesserit went around the universe planting myths in primitive cultures, just in case they got stuck on a shithole and needed help to get out of it.
     
  2. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Yes she just did not think her son, daughter, and the Fremen would make eschatological scripture into bloody material reality like the First Crusade with nukes.

    Paul establishes the Kingdom of God and slaughters the infidels. The Fremen pray for this from the opening page.

    of course the Liet-Keynes actress have no idea that the Fremen meant by “cleanse this world” and Dennis V definitely does but knows there is no way in hell that movie would ever get made just like an accurate film about the First Crusade would never, ever get made with the mass slaughter, headhunting, literal trials by fire, and cannibalism. Game of Thrones was the Care Bears compared to the First Crusade. Islamic fundamentalists taking over the universe isn’t sellable to teenagers. You’re not making 300 million dollars from that.
     
  3. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    You can pull off really evil protagonists but you have to design the rest of the cast to be thoroughly satanic child molester scumbags relative to the merely less evil protagonist for it to work. Casting Paul as an absolute good guy committing genocide though, yup, you're right, not gonna happen.
     
  4. imackler

    imackler Key Lime Pie Infected Aberdeen Wings Spy

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    Finally saw it. And I'm not sure what to think. I haven't read this thread yet, but I'm looking forward to doing so after this post. I woke up thinking about the movie; that happens way too rarely with movies. But even more, I woke up feeling it. The planet. The scenes. The other-worldliness of it. I want to see it again. Kind of. But more as an experience than a movie. And at the same time, I think I would feel the same way I did watching it last night: This is kind of boring. Maybe because I reread the book a year ago or so? Maybe... Not boring like I didn't like it... more like I've seen this before. Not sure if that is a good or bad trait in a movie from a book. But then again.. Dune is kind of a weird book. It treats you like a tolerated refugee and so does the movie.

    I really have no idea how someone who is not a fan of the book would feel about it. I'm guessing they would find it slow-moving, weird and with mediocre acting. And I think they'd be disappointed with no climax to the movie. As a book fan, I felt like it was a pastiche of imagined sketches of what life on Dune is like. Or concept art for a Dune movie. So, in that way, it was fascinating. Almost, like how when I was a kid, I got a Tolkien calendar and you saw different artists' renditions of Middle-Earth. The movie felt like that. The score complemented it. Yeah, so it was like a well-produced travelogue of Arakkis, etc.

    I wish there were no actors that I knew in the movie. It kind of destroyed the experience, the other-worldliness. I thought it strange how they kept saying "humans" like there were alien races. Which was a weird in a movie without non-humans. But seeing humans who you've seen in all kind of other movies, felt like a paste-and-copy job. Probably couldn't have gotten the success without them, but apart from Paul and Jessica, not sure the big names added much to the movie. Just kind of reminded you that you weren't actually on another planet. Actors probably shouldn't distract from the mirage.

    My 11 year old daughter asked who the protagonist was. First, I thought, Paul. But then I thought Arakkis. Maybe that's right. I'm not sure.

    Other thoughts:
    • Didn't like the casting of Liet Kynes.
    • Really loved the voice. That was terrifying.
    • Loved the ornithopters. And the Shai Halud.
    • Jason Mamoa. smh.
    • The space scenes. So cool.
    • Thought it was a good move to be upfront about the emperor's plotting. If I remember in the book, you have to guess more, put the parts together. That kept things going in the movie.
    • Was that weird giant pet bug in the movie?
    • Kind of works better as an excellent BBC miniseries than a theater movie. Except you want to see and hear it on the big screen.
     
  5. Entropy

    Entropy Facebook Friend

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    Can this be considered stylishly late? :p

    I didn't expect this much negative response to the movie in this forum- I rather enjoyed it, but perhaps on different merits compared to how I enjoyed the book. I can see the annoyance over the shallow depth the movie presents, but at the same time afaik the movie was cut down from 6-7 hours, and the production cut did include many more intricacies and scenes (The greenhouse, the dinner scene, the kidnapping of Jessica and paul, etc.). They seemed to have been discarded to create a more cohesive plot, obviously lower the runtime, and appeal more easily to a mainstream audience. So perhaps dune should never have been adapted, but I do quite enjoy the movie (especially the shots and the score) and tend to rewatch it every month or two.
     
  6. wbass

    wbass Friend

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    It's strange to me that I haven't felt much draw back to this movie, especially given that this is just the sort of space flick that I like to rewatch now and then. Heck, I think I've seen Sunshine twice in the time since my first and only watch of Dune.

    As before, I found it impressive and grand but strangely inert.
     
  7. caute

    caute Lana Del Gayer than you

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    this isn’t you, just villeneuve, imo. Just as with Blade Runner: 2049, there’s an odd substancelessness that permeates his films, the epitome of stylish, yes, the cinematography is entrancing! But take all that sparkle away and the story is laid bare: strangely slow (and I love Edward Yang’s films, I can love slow), lacking, without a heart or soul. I believe he values the operatic spectacle of sight, the grandeur of the eye over substantive storylines, development, and narrative legibility. He would make a great music video director or experimental filmmaker, but for me, he is sadly—as of yet—under-matured as a bone fide storyteller.
     
  8. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    This is again not explained in the movie (is anything explained in the movie??), but this story deals with societal elites, people who have put themselves on the top of an intricate social structure and truly believe they are the betters of the people below them. The Bene Gesserit genuinely believe that most people are animals and not worthy of being called human. That is what the Gom Jabbar tests for. "An animal will chew off its arm to get out of a trap, whereas a human will endure the pain so they can strike back at the one who inflicted it" (paraphrasing).

    This is contrasted with the way Paul embraces the "animalistic" ways of the Fremen (Free men) who are regarded as purely savages by the Bene Gesserit, the Harkonnens, and the Emperor.
     
  9. wbass

    wbass Friend

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    I agree about 2049. It has many stunning images, but somehow shuts you out of the story. It's another instance of Villeneuve going big, almost monumental in his real and virtual sets but leaving the story somehow undernourished.

    That said, I do really like Sicario.
     
  10. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I'm going to disagree about BR 2049. The screenplay was written by the writer of the original film, Hampton Fancher, and IMO it has far more of an old Hollywood feel than any other film made in the last twenty years. As such, it might seem lightweight but I find it utterly refreshing in a world where so many movies are made with a predictable formula.
     
  11. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

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    I have read the books and I also enjoyed part 1 of the movie. I feel like I’m pretty good at going into movie adaptations with appropriate expectations. I basically view the book and movie as two completely different works that one can enjoy independently rather than watching the movie while constantly ticking off everything that was “wrong” with it compared to the book. This is why I could easily enjoy The Rings of Power series and other adaptations. Another example is watching FoTR I noticed there was no Tom Bombadil but I didn’t give a shit. It’s a different product. Having said that, The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe was the most faithful book to move adaptation I’ve ever seen. More doable because the book was so short.

    I enjoy Villeneuve a lot too. Loved his many collabs with Johann Johannsson as well.
     
  12. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

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    Denis V. (I hate spelling his last name) is an excellent storyteller. Polytechnique, Prisoners, Enemy, Sicario are all expertly crafted narratives. But he does go off the rails sometimes and loses focus (Arrival, Balde Runner)... I need to revisit Dune to see if it can maintain the aura it created over me when I first saw it. But Denis V. is like any other brilliant filmmaker... they all have misses. If you want style over substance, watch a Zack Snyder movie.
     
  13. caute

    caute Lana Del Gayer than you

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    Perhaps I need to see his earlier films, I've only seen Arrival, 2049 and Dune :/ and none of those really pushed me to dig further back in his filmography unfortunately.
     
  14. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

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    His earlier films are definitely better.
     
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  15. DigMe

    DigMe Friend

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    Sicario is prob my fave. I quite liked Arrival though.
     
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  16. Boops

    Boops Friend

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    Don’t miss Sicario.
     
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  17. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Sicario is his best, Prisoners is also excellent.
     
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  18. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    As someone who's watched Prisoners, Sicario, Arrival, BR 2049 and Dune, I feel like Denis's strength is definitely his finesse and subtlety in immersion/worldbuilding and plot buildup. It almost seems cold, calculating and neurotically grounded as far as art goes but it is exactly the ambivalent frame of mind a viewer starts out with that sets them up for being immersed. This really puts a strain on whether the climax/resolution/"Prestige" works with the deeply invested audience or not, but I would consider it excellent directing nevertheless, especially when it is coupled with good plot twists. Prisoner and Sicario I could imagine the screenplays themselves blowing everyone in production's minds upon reading; they are expertly written movies first and foremost. Arrival really intrigued and moved me on the first viewing, but on rewatches when the sentimentality fades you do see the lack of focus. Blade Runner 2049 I really didn't like at first seemingly due to the same lack of focus. Then I rewatched Blade Runner and realized the plot was meandering as all get out in that too, but it was capstoned by a 20 out of 10 soliloquy/philosophical monologue (does any villain speech hold up?). The scene works objectively by catching the viewers off-guard, completely recontextualizing the entirety of events before it and affecting those after (Deckard's catalyst), and I've never stopped being moved by it on rewatches. 2049 actually seems more focused throughout but the plot twist just doesn't work at all for me, being delivered by some random party I have zero sentiments about and feeling like a writer's gimmick to the point I lose my suspension of disbelief. If there's an objective argument for the twist, I would love to hear it.

    Dune to me, as a non-reader, seemed a bit compromised by having to set up for part 2, basically incorporating elements into the movie to force the sequel approval. Immersion is definitely not lacking, probably among his best work ever in that aspect, but the buildup this time is a bit strange, where it feels like some plot details are heavily obscured or made obtuse (the space travel teleportation tunnel, namedropping "Landsraad" like that means anything to non-readers, the multiple futures thing), while others are made super explicit (the holy war vision). I'm inclined to believe the obtuse elements are intentional by Denis while the exposition stuff is by committee to keep general audience on track and hyped up for part 2. It feels a bit inconsistent in a sense
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2023
  19. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Spoilers for BR 2049:

    Your question of what purpose does the twist serve did get me thinking. Both films are exploring the idea of what it means to be human. The original film explores this through the final monologue, where we realize that the Replicants have experienced things that have moved them and changed them and made them more than their programming. The film does ask the question though, what if those experiences were not held firsthand? What if they were implanted from someone else? Does the effect that those experiences have on a person have less meaning if the person remembering them never actually experienced them in real life? The film does, to my eyes, say that yes ultimately Replicants are valid as people regardless. Deckard risks his life to be with Rachael and treats her as fully human.

    BR 2049 pushes this idea further. Deckard and Rachael's actual daughter is metaphorically and physically cut off from the rest of humanity. The only way she can share her essential human-ness is to seed Replicants with elements from her own real memories. These Replicants then feel connected to her and her experiences in ways they couldn't otherwise, and it wakes them up to the state of their own condition. The experiences of her memories change them, and then the experience of understanding that they aren't their own memories changes them again. This is a very different process than one Replicant discovering he's Deckard and Rachael's son. This is a process of learned empathy, and I believe it ties in nicely with the themes of the original film.

    It also ties in nicely with the noir genre, where the protagonist is intimately caught up in the mystery but is never actually a central figure in it. The plot and character dynamics happen around the protagonist, and he is caught in their wake. This is more true to the noir films of the 30s and 40s than the first Blade Runner, which became as much about Deckard as the Replicants.
     
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  20. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    This is tremendous. Thank you for sharing. I need to rewatch 2049 with your analysis in mind. I adore the first BR, but didn't quite connect with 2049. Honestly, I think it was missing a bit of whimsy and kitsch that defined a lot of 80's cinema for me - nothing necessarily lacking from theme, narrative, etc.

    Kind of like with some recent superhero movies. Too dark and joyless.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2023

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