Magni 3+ and Magni 3 Heresy released

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by redrich2000, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    LOL, if you ask nice, I'm sure we'd build one with a black top. Or get you black tops. But please please please after the holidays. They're running full out right now.
     
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  2. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Keep the Sith enclosure on the dark-side amp Jason. It's awesome.
     
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  3. Outerspace Wasabi

    Outerspace Wasabi Friend

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    It's funny how both sides--ASR vs SBAF--talk shit about each other.

    I'm not too hung up on measurements, but to be fair to ASR, the Atom really does sound good--I mean really good--and I'm an avid distortionist--my preference is for valves.

    But because the Atom showed me what $99 can get you, this little Magni 3+ really has my interest, which has only been further buoyed by @bboris77 's favorable opinions of it so far.
     
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  4. Grattle

    Grattle Friend

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    I wasn’t arguing a point. I was really wondering if the total distortion is the sum of the component parts or if it’s multiplicative, or it’s just the value of the most distorting component. If it’s the latter, it seems as if transducers would be ALL that matters because as you pointed out, they are by far the weakest link in the chain.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Yup. Will be interesting to test. One big caveat already: Most of the "grass" from amps is too low for microphones to detect, that is below the noise floor.

    Will also be interesting because now we are talking about the measurement with the pot set to reasonable volume levels (instead of at full for the analyzers to run through the ranges).
     
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  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

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    Everything matters. A component in the signal path affects the sound forever. Anyone who claims otherwise has never played around with high end audio gear. Hissing, cheapo monitors still respond to converter changes. Pretty much all of decent cheap ones do. Even the ones with DSP crossovers but only analog inputs like JBLs and KRKs. Yes one converter chip DA pass affects the AD, which affects the DA. The same as anyone using analog studio gear in the 21st century with a computer. They needs multiple rounds of conversion. Since converters can measure well and sound radically different through transducers with infinitely greater distortion, of course it matters. A mic pre driven hard to the point of distortion is not going to make the less distorted converters later on in the path indistinguishable and perfectly transparent. There are no 100% transparent converters. If there were, whoever made it could sell 100 units to corporate clients with deep pockets for 10k a pop. The speaker must still react to what it's fed within its window of sound that it conveys. The speaker's distortion does not magically "duck" the lower distortion like a sidechained bassline compressor in an edm track which automatically lowers or hides the bass when other stuff wants those frequencies. It doesn't render it opaque or null. Only braindead people like Ethan Whiner think that a speaker filters out all the previous distortion or that a Behringer da isn't gonna fuck up everything.

    Basically, compound a bunch of distorted shit together and you just get more distortion. You want less overall cacophonous distortion within the frame of sound presented by your components. Often that means getting very poor components (Topping, Behringer, AGD, MP3s, hyper limited loudness war masters) out of the signal path early on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  7. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    Nope. Life is too short and my work queue too long. I therefore must prioritize my time towards hi-value activities.

    Indeed. Transformers and tubes in the path, run hot, are rather useful for bass lines, especially to thicken tracks by adding musically related harmonics.
     
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  8. Andre Y

    Andre Y Friend

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    The short answer is that the orders of the distortion multiply. For example, if you run an amp with 2nd order distortion into a speaker with 2nd order distortion, the output of the speaker will contain 3rd and 4th order distortion products, albeit at much lower levels. Whether the distortion of a component will swamp another's or some detail in a recording is a really complicated question to answer.
     
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The better question is whether if the amp distortion is high enough to even matter, that is past ambient, and past inherent performance of driver.

    Behold. 1kHz signal in Verite approximately 95db SPL give or take, which is annoyingly loud.

    One is from the ASR highly recommended Schiit Heresy. One is from the HeadAmp Gilmore LIte mk2 (which at a fixed x6 gain) would not be recommended by ASR. One is silence (with the Verite on the coupler, and all devices turned off).

    Will let you guys guess which is which. Note possible pollution in the bass from very distant airplanes, cars, etc. Microphone also has noise limits.
    ezgif-2-f83ae434dfa8.gif

    Note: The SINAD of headphones is so crappy relative to that of the SINAD of amps, whether these amps are ASR recommended or ASR not recommended.

    For reference:

    GL mk2 0dbU into 300-ohms (which I feel subjectively is an excellent sounding amp with the ZMF Verite)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  10. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Any impressions with Andro or other IEMs?
     
  11. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    I did not think the Magni 3+ was a great pairing with Andromeda. the low OI brought out the bassy nature, and when adding IEMatch to hit the 2 ohm OI mark overall sonics were even keeled, but flat and somewhat lifeless. reduction in air. didn’t listen beyond 3 tracks to be honest.

    did not plug Andro into Heresy because I’m not a sadist. will leave that to @zerodeefex .
     
  12. JohnBooty

    JohnBooty Acquaintance

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    I always see references to "the Reddit crowd" on here with regards to being "slaves to ASR" or whatever.

    I'm a moderator on r/BudgetAudiophile, which is one of the bigger "audiophile" subreddits though I'm sure r/Audiophile and r/Headphones get more traffic than us.

    Perhaps you'd be relieved to know our policy as mods is to not to publicly refer to ASR. Causes too much confusion. When other folks refer to ASR in our subreddit, we caution them that much of what's discussed there has no bearing on audibility.

    I can't speak for r/Audiophile, but I don't see ASR worshiped there either. Maybe on r/Headphones? I don't read that one. Each subreddit is pretty distinct with its own mods and rules, etc. They can be as different from one another as SBAF and ASR.

    Well, think about the average person who's asking for advice. Folks who have been balls-deep in the hobby for decades aren't asking for purchase advice. The advice-seekers are typically new to the hobby, overwhelmed by choices, and working with a limited budget.

    We do tell these folks not to worry about the differences between various DACs and various amps. This is less "we think all DACs and amplifiers are the same" and more "when somebody only has a few hundred bucks to work with, yeah, they should probably put the bulk of it into their speakers."
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  13. JohnBooty

    JohnBooty Acquaintance

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    Wound up with a double post here. Doesn't seem to be a delete option. My apologies. Was trying to do several things at once.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  14. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Almost "Made"

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    They are talking about the r/headphones subreddit I think. A lot of the members there are really into ASR and will downvote the crap out of people suggesting amps/dac votes sound different and demand to see hard peer reviewed evidence for any kind of opinion. ASR is linked all the time there and there is pretty common insistence that getting the absolute best measuring stuff is a worthwhile investment. Or the other extreme which is just use your motherboard, you dont need a dac/amp at all. There are plenty of people who give other opinions of course, but the ASR citing crowd is quite aggressive and loud.

    I think telling people new to the hobby that while amps and dacs make a difference they are better off spending most of their budget on their headphones is the right thing to do. Really the entry level amps and dacs are so good now that most people will be extremely happy with them. You have to spend quite a lot to really outdo a Magni/Modi combo and most people will be very happy with it.
     
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  15. JohnBooty

    JohnBooty Acquaintance

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    I agree with you on all points.

    One thing I forgot to mention about r/BudgetAudiophile is that we don't cover headphones at all. There is a surplus of headphone talk on reddit and elsewhere so we let everybody else handle that.

    We stick to our niche-within-a-niche, which is basically "two channel, speaker-based audio systems." I know r/Audiophile does the same.

    (I of course realize the differences between DACs and amplifiers will tend to reveal themselves far more readily with headphones than speakers at similar prices)
     
  16. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I don't want to contribute to further noise pollution on arguing over folks who defend Reddit, so I'll give a quick reply and you can have the last word.

    What you quoted was off the cuff, but as Raimei said I was referring to r/headphones. There's a lot of ASR acolytes over there that believe spending more than an Atom or a Topping DAC is pure snake oil so then they'll trash anything that is more than $99 without ever having said gear in their possession. That's my issue. And any alternative products are pointless as an Atom or a THX 799999whatever can "power" any headphone. There's going to be no sonic differences, and as their cult leader says "anyone who says they can hear a difference is lying to you." But it's more than just simply spreading misinformation, there is clear intent to deliberately mislead people by ASR ideologues. And it's also the lack of awareness of their bias and blind adherence to The One True Scientific Truth™. That's why I like SBAF, as biases are known and folks are open and honest about them without apology. I've tried to help people over there a few times on clearing up misconceptions but they are married to an ideology and cannot be helped. You can't argue with people who are in a religion. There's nothing more futile. And yeah I agree the headphones matter more than differences in amps/DACs but in my experience with headphones, they still matter depending on the headphone you have.

    To bring this back to the Magni 3+ and Heresy, I hope folks do take up Schiit's offer of buying both and returning one. If it emerges that folks clearly prefer the 3+ over the Heresy, that should help to undermine the One Measurement Ring to Rule Them All approach (and both amps measure very well). Or maybe that's too hopeful.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Perspective guys:

    upload_2019-12-13_8-15-16.png
     
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Let's think of this way:

    ASR highly recommended 115db SINAD* amp -> 70 SINAD* headphone = 70db SINAD* acoustic output
    ASR not recommended 90db SINAD* amp -> 70 SINAD* headphone = 70db SINAD* acoustic output

    Theoretically and simplistically speaking we will need an amp that has SINAD* (under same measurement parameters) closer to the headphone SINAD* for there to be a difference. Of course we know that doesn't work that way subjectively, e.g. Jot vs THX789

    *1kHz into say half a volt into 300-ohms.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    To follow up more to @Grattle's question. The voltages are additive. However, db is logarithmic is needs to be converted to voltages (or sound pressure) for addition. After addition in complete, we convert back to db.

    upload_2019-12-13_10-25-18.png

    The question is with a reference signal at 0dbFS, can you tell the difference in distortion products near 70db below that vary less than 1 db?
     
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  20. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    People sometimes forget Jason Stoddard's background and experience in marketing. He knows how to turn around negative publicity to a positive outcome, e.g. ASR bad mouthing Schiit products and then introducing a $99 Heresy amp that no one can really complain about. And just in time for holiday shopping. He should write a book about it. Oh wait he already has link for those who have not read it already.

    ASR so far seems to be important to millennials and Gen Z's on a budget. They are told it is not necessary to spend more than a few $100 for either a great measuring DAC or amp, and great measurements has to equal great sound quality. Browse r/headphones for example. I hope Schiit surprises us with a delta-sigma DAC next year at $99 that ASR also can't complain about because it measures so well it blows the competition out of the water.

    Then Schiit can recommend their least expensive DAC and amp to the objectivists and concentrate on providing great discrete amps and multibit DACs for the rest of us. Lots of surprises from Schiit lately 2020 should be interesting!
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
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