Sensitive speakers for tube amps

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Cspirou, Sep 29, 2015.

  1. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf MOT - Sonarworks

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    PA stuff is built first for SPL, reliability and only then sound quality. Some of PA/Guitar cab bass drivers can be used in high sensitivity loudspeakers due to their high sensitivity (duh!). The tradeoff usually is that large PA drivers very rarely go as low as their size would suggest.

    Check this out.
     
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  2. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    Mabey.....
    I was cheap, bought a nice hartke head for $110, and a pair of 15" jbl pa speakers for $110.
     
  3. Rex Aeterna

    Rex Aeterna Friend

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    weakest link to most pa speakers is the crossovers. that's why they're usually ran active anyways. there is good sounding pa speakers and there is bad sounding pa stuff. lot that high-end audiophile speaker stuff use pro drivers in lot of their products. i heard lot of good pa/pro stuff and lot of bad as well. some of my favorite speakers were used for pa and studio use.
     
  4. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    Going low isn't always what it's cracked up to be, it's mainly just important that the driver doesn't sound thin through 100-200hz region to be usable for hi-fi. You can always add a sub for electronic and other music that needs low end.
     
  5. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf MOT - Sonarworks

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    If you don't have neighbours and are able to tame that low end, why not... Otherwise you might be right.

    That's why I use 12" drivers. What you need is nice power handling and a 6" won't be able to pull it off that easy.
     
  6. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I feel like people here who are used to the HD800 or even Orthos (or good IEMs) won't be able to settle for small bass drivers. Even 10" drivers will distort more than most headphones. Getting bass quality and extension that is on par with good headphones in the speaker world seems to be almost impossible. The volume headphones have to drive is just so much less that even 18" drivers seem tiny in comparison. Getting HD800 extension with a 95db/W efficient woofer seems almost impossible (roll off seems to be about 2db/octave starting at 100Hz).
    Just to give you an idea: At what should be about 105db (have to check when I get the calibration thing), the 3rd order distortion stays below about 0.4% down to 20Hz. It's below 0.1% above 340Hz. The 2nd order seems to stay below 0.1% above 100Hz, and rises at lower frequencies. At 30Hz it hits 1%. In the midrange both seem to be below the noise floor. At 1kHz I measure less than 0.05% D2 (and I suspect it's lower, just limited by my cheap rig) and much less than 0.02% D3.
     
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  7. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    There's a reason @Marvey runs separate subs with his high efficiency stuff folks (as do I)
     
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  8. Rex Aeterna

    Rex Aeterna Friend

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    lowest note on a piano is 28hz. low note on a bass guitar is 30hz. there is some instruments with good low end information out there. for hi-fi in my opinion what i consider true ''fullrange'' is if something can atleast reach down to 30hz with very low distortion before rolling off.
     
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  9. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Is there any measurements of the bk16 with fe166en? How low do they go?
     
  10. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    There's a trade off between sensitivity and frequency response. The large voice coils & heavy cones in the driver and also the extra circuitry in the crossover required to play that low will drop the sensitivity about 12db. The higher frequencies produced by the driver will not sound as nice as it will with a paper cone. The speaker will also now breakup and distort much faster, even with massive amounts of amplifier power.

    I've been down that road before, a separate subwoofer that only produces frequencies below about 80hz is the way to go.
     
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  11. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    When you do get near there, HP bass feels fake AF in comparison.
    Actually, in good acoustics I'd take good 8'' bass before any headphone's.
     
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  12. batriq

    batriq Probably has made you smarter

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  13. murray

    murray Friend

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    That's a well laid out logical approach to the question.
     
  14. Besnia

    Besnia Almost "Made"

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    What you're saying is absolutely true, as a rule of thumb. I would add though, that poor in-room bass relates more to poor room acoustics, rather than the size and quality of a transducer. And bass traps are a must, even if you're using bookshelf monitors. What's worse, nowadays builders are using so much plasterboard, which messes up the low frequencies and reduces efficiency, it's appalling. Unless you have solid brick walls and concrete floor/ceiling, you're doomed. I know I am :) As you pointed out, speakers produce audibly more distortion and are less efficient, given the air-mass they have to move. Yet, speakers bass is exhilarating, you feel it through your skull and chest. The overall impact is incomparable to headphones. Years ago I built a 2.5 meters tall boxes - back-firing horns, 6.8m flare, for an 8 inch driver and ran them by a 2.5W/pc tube amp. The bass was hitting so hard, my ribs were rattling inside my body. At this point I realized you couldn't kill the low bass. It was so overwhelming and no matter what materials I used to line the flare with, I could never adequately subdue the frequencies below 80-90hz. You can't stop the bass! :) Anyway, I strayed off the point. What I wanted to say was, in my opinion even a 4.5" BR specced full ranger in a small bass reflex, pressed against the back wall, would produce a more exciting bass than any headphone. It's more engrossing and visceral, so to speak. The whole backwall becomes a baffle. My point is, there's more to it, than just distortion.
     
  15. Besnia

    Besnia Almost "Made"

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    You're absolutely right. Especially in terms of full rangers, you can't have sensitivity, clarity in the treble and bass extension at the same time. There's always a trade-off, you can only have 2 out of 3.

    Can't agree more! I like paper, paper and paper. Doped paper, even thin notebook paper a-la Lowther. I like everything that is paper more, than anything that isn't.
     
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  16. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    I thought so in the past as well, but I proved myself wrong many times.
    There is no denying plasterboard acoustics suck, and there's jack that can be done to make it good. RIP plasterboard construction!
    Concrete and stone walls are NOT a must. I actually am biased against them now in a practical home scenario. You'd need absurd amounts of damping and diffusers to make it sound good.
    In a room made of solid logs or wooden blanks the damping problem is a lot less severe. Wood eats up most high mids and treble, the stuff that is directional.
    Pure wooden room will have ''honk'' and a little bit bloated-indistinct bass. The honk can be managed, bass is more concerning.
    On the other hand there is no catching the 30 Hz energy anyways, it will pass through even 30 cm of stone wall with little sweat.
    You might wanna consider lead padding ;)

    The other, completely u-turn approach is having uber light walls, or a lot of windows. And treating for only highs and mids. Bass will fuck off through the wall and treble will be eaten by damping. I like that approach more.
     
  17. Besnia

    Besnia Almost "Made"

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    @Priidik Those are some really interesting solutions :) I wouldn't really agree with the last one though. In the office the outer walls/windows are glass top to bottom. The bass flies away through the glass, but it's very hard to subdue the upper mids and treble unless you covers the windows completely. Not very practical. Interesting you mentioned solid logs. A friend of mine has a loghouse villa and the bass there sounds like it's coming from a vintage Klipsch horn. I don't think the problem is with the massive logs themselves, they form up the outer walls of the house, but with the plywood used for the inner walls. It seems too thin and shabby. At the end of the day I'd still pick concrete and bricks. You've got very little energy loss. Yes, you'll have to buy a lot of damping material, but it's worth it every penny IMO.

    Well, the loss isn't at all that extreme :) I'm more than happy with -3 or or -6 at 40hz.
     
  18. pedalhead

    pedalhead Friend

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    Bit of a thread resurrection. I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on the Frugal Horn mk3 with an Alpair7? I'll be using a Cary 10wpc KT88 amp in a medium sized living room. There's a place in the UK that sells them as a kit so they'll be easy to put together. I only have experience of building IB subs so a bit out of water with speakers. Cheers.
    http://frugal-horn.com/FH3.html
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Funny you mention this because I'm in line for a FH3 flatpack. The Alpair 7 might not be efficient enough for a 10W. The Fostex Fe126 and Fe108 are more efficient drivers. I plan on using the latter because I have drivers sitting on the shelf.
     
  20. bobboxbody

    bobboxbody Wow, I made it this far without being a friend?

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    The fundamental frequency of low E on a bass guitar is 41hz on goes down to 30hz for a 5 string with a low B. 40hz is pretty low frequency response for pop music, less so for orchestral.
     

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