Sins of Omission vs Sins of Commission

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by purr1n, Jul 27, 2022.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    ChaChaRealSmooth: I'm finding that sins of omission bother me way more than sins of commission. Curious about other member's opinions here.
     
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  2. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    JDS Atom -vs- iFi Zen Amp
    Schiit Heresy -vs- Vali 2+
     
  3. TomNC

    TomNC Friend

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    Agree. For instance, Sony R10 is super fast and highly detailed with elevated trebles. For orchestra music, this is not a problem rather than a merit. For pop or rock music, you can choose to lower the volume or use EQ, or a source with a tremble roll-off. Even with a phone, R10 still sounds super resolving and clear. But if there are no speed and resolution with some transducers in the first place, spending a high amount of money on sources and amp won't help much. Analogical to photography, if limited dynamic range causes over-exposure, high levels of noise or low pixel sensors cause low resolution, post-processing adjustments would lead to all kinds of artifact without much improvement.

    With sins of commission, you have more options; with those of omission, you cannot do much.
     
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  4. Jh4db536

    Jh4db536 Friend

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    They both bother me; however, i am a lot more tolerant when it comes to sins of commission because it might be synergistic in the chain or feed a preference.

    It required a bit of experience to learn what i'm missing (sins of omission) by playing with lots of different sources...digital dacs, vinyl, analog tapes, etc. Learning what digital is missing was a milestone for me. Then omissions start adding up downstream with each component in the path.
     
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  5. dasman66

    dasman66 Self proclaimed lazy ass - friend

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    With entry level gear, sins of commission was all I knew (ie., the midrange sounds wonky) and I didn't know what was being omitted... because... you don't know what you don't know.

    Now that I've heard more capable gear, sins of omission bother we much, much more than sins of commission. I'll immediately think what happened to the deep bass line? Where is the air on that song? Why is everything presented so flat? Where is the detail? IOW, now I know what I'm missing and I immediately turn off, while my brain will eventually burn into accepting minor sins of commission.
     
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  6. Erroneous

    Erroneous Friend

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    I agree with others here. With sins of omission you can't get back what you've lost. I'm a tube guy and I like sins of commission because I can tailor the sound to my preferences often just with the right tube. If I wanted perfectly linear (no commission) sound, I would just chase TOTL SS gear.
     
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  7. Arun Kumar

    Arun Kumar Friend

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    Hmm I prefer omission over commission eg Soekris smoothed over sound vs Yggdrasil revealing but slightly exaggerated FR, HD650's relatively lower detail over a brittle sounding 800
     
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  8. Beefy

    Beefy Almost "Made"

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    I prefer omission. My brain fills in the stuff that is missing. But my brain can't ignore something bad that keeps poking me in the eardrum.
     
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  9. Abhishek Chowdhary

    Abhishek Chowdhary Friend

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    sins of omission - At least I can then get rid of the gear without second thoughts
    sins of commission - additional money and time. Eventually it gets replaced too depending on sin threshold.....adds to learning and experience though.
     
  10. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

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    I can't decide which one, it depends on what trait bothers me more regardless if it's a sin of omission or commission.
    For example, I can't stand the fake timbre of BAs but I'm totally okay with the Sabre fake treble. Both sins of commission. And I can't stand the lack of treble extension of most budget IEMs yet I'm totally okay with lower resolution transducers, both sins of omission.

    So my answer is a big fat 'it depends' .
     
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  11. YMO

    YMO Scatologically ribald obsessive

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    Fixing anything cost money
     
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  12. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Maybe it's because I'm cheaper than many here, but for me it depends very strongly on the particular sin. First priority, tonal balance - if there are big peaks or dips somewhere (particularly upper mids through treble), I don't care if there might be mild timbral oddities or subdued or overdone technicalities. Given reasonable tonality, the focus becomes timbre, especially realistic rendering of highs (no hashy 'old delta-sigma' cymbals). After that, technicalities, and my tolerance for variations there depends on how integrated the sonic character seems - eg soft macrodynamics or subdued microdynamics are ok if they're consistent across the range, rather than missing in one spot and exaggerated in another.

    So for me, not all sins are created equal; and in practical terms for how I judge sin, that means focusing on transducers first, sources & amps later (haven't figured out in what order for those two).

    See also @nishan99 post, which came in as I was just about to hit reply.
     
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  13. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    What if they're the same thing, only in different contexts/different chains/different music/different moods? I don't think our brains "know" any absolutes; don't we we do most of our sense-making through relative comparison?

    HD800 is a perfect example of this "problem", imho.

    Things one may do with HD800:
    • love it (omission?)
    • burn it (commission?)
    • tweak it (commission?)
    • EQ it (commission?)
    • leave it alone (omission?)
    • spend used-car-money on amps for it (omission?)
    • spend used-car-money on tubes for it (commission?)
    • spend used-car-money on cables for it (you should be committed)
    • spend less than $300 on a dac/amp for it (zen?)
    • set it free, because if it loves you it will return (neither)
     
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  14. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    Both. :) but I can live with omission much better than commission. Sins of omission tend to make the music sound kind of boring. Most sins of commission make me rip headphones off my head in very short time and I can’t even tolerate listening to them.

    I think we all may be defining this differently though. To me tubes aren't necessarily a sin of commission, not if the music sounds more realistic. I don't care what measurements say, our ears know better. If measurements don't show what we hear, we're not measuring the right things.

    To me, sins of commission are things like dips in a headphones's FR and sins of commission are peaks.

    Sins of commission are the weird timbre issues added to music by various driver types (except orthos, which don't add any timbre issues if implemented correctly :) )

    The HD650 has lots of sins of omission and few sins of commission which is why it's so popular.
     
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  15. Pancakes

    Pancakes Friend

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    HD8XX hated it because of omission (mids).
    HE400i 2020 hated it because of commission (highs).

    With headphones it depends since FR and/or timbre can be blatantly bad. Some technicality and spacial issues of either omission or commission are generally tolerable if the FR and timbre are good.

    With source gear or amplification I get way more annoyed with omission.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
  16. jnak00

    jnak00 Friend

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    I was trying to frame this around what I like, but it's easier to think of what I didn't like. And it's both. Sins of commissions irritated me with the TH-X00 and HE400S (treble sharpness). Sins of omission killed the Ether CX and the HE400S for me (no bass).
     
  17. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    @E_Schaaf pointed this out in the @ChaChaRealSmooth timeline post.

    It is true. It's the zen paradox of "Is a pot the clay it is made out of or is it the hole?"

    We only know if we're talking about the same thing through shared experience and context.

    Again, as per @yotacowboy, it's possible to write inverted arguments depending on word choice.

    HD650 treble is a sin of commission because it has rolled highs.
    HD650 treble is a sin of omission because it lacks extension.
    HD650 bass is a sin of commission because lows have a lot of distortion.
    HD650 bass is a sin of omission because it lacks slam and tight articulation

    Amir is vigorously masturbating watching us have this discussion.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
  18. Beefy

    Beefy Almost "Made"

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    Is that frowned upon? Huh.
     
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  19. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Doubtful, because most sins other than tonal balance and distortion aren't revealed by his measurements and therefore can't exist.

    Edits
     
  20. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    The objectivist dream come true: The subjectivists become lost in their elaborate vocabulary and hazy terms, the solipsists are vindicated, and any comforting religion proselytizing the existence of a shared subjective reality among minds is revealed to be a fraud.

    I'm joking obviously, but really, this kind of discussion is nectar to "only truth is in measurements" heretics.
     
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