Topping and SMSL with ASR Punking Us on DACs?

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    You will be labeled a trouble-maker, be persona-non-grata, and/or be banned by Amir's moderators. Look what happened to @GoldenOne.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
  2. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    Sounds like the old dance between fools and their money. I'm never sure it's entirely worth trying to stop it, though past a certain critical mass it enables the manipulators so much it's criminal.
     
  3. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    Have you learned nothing from ASR? Above 70.1235.
     
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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    We can't stop it. But it's worth pointing out.

    The issue isn't IQ. The most enlightening experience I have had is being around normal people, that is non-audiophiles. It's cool seeing people hearing better stuff, remarking: "Wow, I didn't think I could hear a difference, even on my crappy self-powered speakers" and developing their own preferences: "I like clarity and don't like it laid down thick."

    The problem is that normal people or people getting into the hobby just don't have enough time or knowledge to fully comprehend. I'd seen folks point out to random graphs on a website and say: "You see, I trust that guy." just because there are graphs.

    Also, there are the computer geeks accustomed to FPS bar graphs for video cards who may be fooled by the SINAD bar graphs that look strikingly similar. Not that FPS bar graphs are really any good. I prefer what HardOCP (RIP) used to do by showing FPS over time so we could see any stutter and low FPS points.
     
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  5. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    Amir and his crowd are not "The Objectivists." If you want the true home of objectivism on the internet it is hydrogenaud.io. And Amir went down like a lead balloon there. Except that, unlike a lead balloon, he wouldn't stay down, and it went on for dozens of pages. Regret to say that I followed, maybe even took part in that conversation.

    Amir and co give a bad name to the word objective. There is nothing wrong with objectivism, if that's one's thing, or is required for some purpose. There is everything wrong with straw objectivism, which is defined to be objected to, as is straw subjectivism.

    And Amir can sod off. Not that he will.



    (It's a long time since I followed Hydrogenaud.io. I might yet, but it seemed to loose its soul when some elder members passed away. Even objectivists have a soul!)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2022
  6. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    The two worst sins you can commit on ASR (and given how that site is arranged I have little issue comparing it to a cult), is to say you can hear a qualitative difference between two similarly measuring components, and to point out that products long ago exceeded the extent of humans to hear the noise floor so all of the products Amir is pushing are wholly redundant.

    The first sin will get you dressed down with a reading of the site dogmas (something is wring with your setup, you have faulty equipment, you're experiencing placebo) until you shut up. The second will get you banned and honestly pretty quickly. I am fully convinced the dual purposes of ASR are to fatten Amir's ego and his bank account, and anything that threatens either of those gets the boot.
     
  7. Johnston98

    Johnston98 Facebook Friend

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    ASR has backed itself into an intellectual corner. If SINAD is the most important factor of an audio device's performance and you have 20+ products with essentially the same performance, what does a company do to improve their line? How can Amir call something "the best" if the performance between the top 30 is negligable and inaudible? I'm curious on how Topping and SMSL are going to pivot since the market is saturated with these "off the shelf" high SINAD DACs.
     
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  8. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: E.T.A Headphones

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    Do ASR folks think that recording studios chase highest-possible SINAD devices to produce good sounding mixes too?

    Just wait until they hear about tube compressors, heavy dithering, and effects chains... and masters with likely under 10dB of headroom.
     
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  9. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    Based on many of the product threads over there, the expectation is that the latest/greatest Topping DAC will die within a year. So planned obsolescence creates a cycle of purchases by the same customers. Just don’t point out that in the end they’re paying way more than some “audiophool” who buys a more expensive DAC from a well-established company and keeps it for many years!
     
  10. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Wait, so even the ASR members acknowledge that the Topping products die at around 12 months??
     
  11. nithhoggr

    nithhoggr Author of the best selling novel Digital Jesus

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    Wait, die as in stop being the best, or die as in stop working altogether? Because probably my favorite thing about audio is that the stuff lasts for years, possibly even decades. I have headphones older than I am that still sound great. A DAC lasting less long than an iPhone is straight up unacceptable in my book, no matter how it sounds.
     
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  12. SoupRKnowva

    SoupRKnowva Official SBAF South Korean Ambassador

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    lol my d90se didn't even work right right out of the damn box. the only input that didn't have constant dropouts was the usb. optical and even i2s from the pi2aes dropped out all the time.
     
  13. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    Prol the former. If it's the latter, who dare to buy from the same company?
    I have a couple of topping converters bought 4 yrs ago. They both still work fine. I'm not saying I like their sound tho.

    PS. He also said "planned obsolescence" which confirms it's not a physical death.
     
  14. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    So what you're saying is that optical and i2s frequently had infinite SINAD! Very impressive, excellent buy.
     
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  15. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I have a topping D10s, which I bought for 90 bucks (canadian) from Amazon because it had next day delivery, served my needs for that particular device, and was super affordable. If the Schiit modi 3 also had D/D capability I would have bought that instead.

    The measurebating for .00000284843949 SINAD difference is dumb, but it's especially dumb when the devices are beginning to cost $800+USD (imagine switching between devices based upon .0000069dB but its costing you a ton to do so.) Chi-Fi is at its best when its super affordable, does a million different things within the same small affordable device, and is easy to obtain.
     
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  16. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    On that list, I've liked the X-Sabre, Gustard. Part of it is because they don't chase the numbers. With AKM, I felt that the higher-end chip one went, the more detailed, but also tonally nastier it sounded, e.g. 4499.
     
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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    It's also dumb because there is a lot of random and unknown shit that can vary the measurements. Take this for example:

    JDS Atom
    Wall wart plugged into left most end of power strip
    [​IMG]

    JDS Atom
    Wall wart plugged into the plug next to the AverLAB plug with power cord lifted up via cable management (wire tire).
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    I don't see the problem, just pick the one that makes the manufacturer look better for $$$. Simple!
     
  19. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    I'm sure some of those folks view "no longer TOTL" as "dead," but I meant literal malfunction or bricking. Without exaggeration, it's common to see folks over there defend Topping's poor QC and high failure rate by saying, "So what? I'll just by the new model when this one dies. It's still cheaper than ____." Clearly, part of the company's business model is keeping prices low by short-changing testing, warranty, and service, and apparently there are plenty of ASR types who love that model.
     
  20. ufospls2

    ufospls2 Friend

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    I also wanted to mention something that has been bugging me about ASR, but I do my best to just not engage with anything to do with it on forums, but now I've posted in this thread I might as well vent.

    In the recent controversies with ASR and the Chord Dave and Mscaler measurements, Amir said something in one of his videos about Rob Watts and something like "does he not know how to measure jitter?" In combination with another comment like (I'm paraphrasing) "anyone can buy an APx555 and do these measurements." I even remember him suggesting people buy the analyzer and do the measurements themselves. The problem is, some people actually did!

    The problem is that schtick only worked when Amir was the only one doing this sort of stuff with the APx555.

    Once Goldensound and purr1n etc....forked over the 30 odd thousand for the measurement device, they get accused of manipulating their results for profit/"x"subjectivist agenda, and also accused of not knowing how to operate the AP device. Goldensound got banned by Amir/ASR, not because of what he was reporting, but because he had the balls to buy the AP confront ASR on its repeated garbage. To this day Amir won't share all of his settings used for each individual report.

    Amir about GS

    "For a guy who believes in such things, I can't fathom why on earth he went and bought an audio analyzer. I think the dreamed that he could find measurements to match his subjective evaluations. He jumped a step which was to confirm what he thought he was hearing was real using controlled blind tests."

    I dunno, the whole thing is dumb. I'm going back to not talking about it now.
     

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