Schools today - training our kids to be wimps

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by purr1n, May 29, 2019.

  1. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

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    There's the "self-help" industry, ready and waiting. succour for suckers!
     
  2. Skyline

    Skyline Double-blindly done with this hobby

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    I've never in my life taught a student like the one you describe above. The things you are saying simply aren't grounded in reality.

    Can you point to some children who have grown up in a bubble and have been overprotected? Absolutely. That has always been true and it always will. This is a parental decision and not a result of our educational system.

    As for this thread as a whole, I'll have to echo @Ringingears here and say that if you haven't been in the classroom working with these kids on a daily basis, then you don't know what you're talking about. Anecdotal evidence seems to be the best anyone can offer, and that's not enough.

    If you want to take shots at the educational system then you'd be better served talking about state and/or federal money tied to student performance which entices school districts to water down exams, curve scores, and graduate students who aren't ready to graduate.

    And even those issues in the educational system are more firmly rooted in issues of social justice (systemic racism, economic inequality, lack of community support, etc.). But that's a whole other discussion for another time.
     
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  3. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    You're basically segueing into your own anecdotal evidence without bringing a single counter argument to the table here. Not that I disagree with everything you've said, your last paragraph is on point as far as I'm concerned, but your personal teaching experiences arent necessarily what constitutes the reality for the whole of the country either.

    There are plenty of entitled kids out there who are not in the least prepared for higher education, much less for the workplace, because their parents and/or the school system failed them. At the end of the day when a kid spends 8h/day 5 days a week in school, they get influenced by what they experience there, which nowadays is a lot more coddling and a lot less based on what they're likely to experience later on in life in the workplace/in society. Schools do fail students in that way more and more. That's not a personal attack against teachers, who are often overworked and underpaid. School districts have administrators that get paid ridiculous amounts of money, budgets that focus less on education and more on marketing/image/test scores, and the result is that on a global scale American students are well under average in pretty much all academic subjects.

    If teachers especially start defending a broken system we're all in trouble in the long run.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  4. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    @purr1n We really are over due for a face to face my friend . There is a lot of truth in what you said. The high school experience is VERY income and real estate dependent. Gains have been made, but economically secure neighborhoods almost always perform better (have attracted more talented teachers) than insecure neighborhoods. Just statistics. I still have no simple answers to any of this. There isn’t one. I worked half my career at a low income school. The other half in my attendance area, my neighbor’s kids. Very different teaching approach for each. Time to eat a burger. More later. Maybe. This seems to be going in the usual direction.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  5. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    As to the original topic of this thread, wimps question....in some places? Maybe? What do you define as a wimp? Scientific question. Not sure if teachers have as much control as you think.
     
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  6. wormcycle

    wormcycle Friend

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    Educators have always been convinced that what they are doing is good for kids, and that without them children will be lost,

    My son, who was born in Poland, attended a school focused on science, he had to pass a exam to get there and of course majority of his class were Asian and Indian kids.
    I do not know if those kids even had a concept of race, except from the biology lessons. Nevertheless they had to seat through a few hours of anti racist "education" delivered, of course, by a young white woman convinced that what she is doing was of primary importance. But the only thing everyone remembered for years was when a very dark skinned Indian kid, who is now making big money working for Mr Zukerberg, told her: " I know that you have to say all those things, that's you job. But what offends me is that you actually believe in this stuff".

    Of course kids are not to blame, I actually think that our children they are pretty resilient taking into account the stream of nonsense they have to deal with.
    Soccer games where there is no winners or looser was not parents idea, it is "enlightened" educations system that started this, with their half baked concept of self esteem based on ..well we do not exactly know that, but it is such a great idea.
    And all kids I heard are amazing.. that I guess that based on hard research and evidence.
     
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  7. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better gear impressions than you

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    Strangely and randomly enough, the filmmaker M Night Shyamalan wrote a book about this. Did a ton of research. He talks about it here. Pretty fascinating (and distressing) subject.

     
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  8. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    This is one of those times where playing grammar/spelling police kinda fits with the argument. See, deconstructionism, etc. yeesh.
     
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  9. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    It's also a good time to remind you that for some of us, English is not our mother tongue ;)

    If you'd rather nitpick at spelling than argue the point though, that does indeed fit the argument well. Fixed it for you nonetheless.

    Yeesh is not a word and you don't need a comma in "See deconstructionism". ;)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  10. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Oh, it's not the teachers. If the teachers had their way, then things would be fine because the boots on the ground are the ones who find practical solutions - they need to be pragmatic. The kids would still be playing football, getting pegged in the back, pushing kids who cut in line down the ground, defending themselves (or victim kids) against the bullies*. The teachers could even stop the stoners (vapers) disrupting the class by sending them to the penalty box (next to the door outside the classroom).

    The problem I see is with this ridiculous dual track of officers and seamen. The solution would be simple: be like the Marines where the officer candidates need to show that they can do everything the grunts do, but better.

    The best leaders are always the ones who become leaders unwillingly, not those who seek to be leaders, angling to find a way to be city council member or overpaid city admin.

    * In junior high, teachers privately told me that they enjoyed seeing me stick up to, and then proceed to beat in the face of bully / class disruptor. One lady teacher was downright gleeful, putting up her dukes in a swinging motion telling me how much she hated that kid.

    My punishment was light: one day suspension. Today I'd be expelled.

    P.S. the cops would probably be called too.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  11. DigMe

    DigMe Needs a baby bottle

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    That’s what we called it. Never heard smear the queer until my college roommate called it that. I remember the exhilaration of everyone standing around the ball seeing who was going to grab it and then grabbing it and running like mad.
     
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  12. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    This made me realise that a lot of the time, people don't tend to see teachers as human in the sense that they've got their own personalities, preferences, and the like. It sucks that mainstream perception of teachers (at least that I know of) is of unfeeling robots whose only goal in life is to cram rote learning into kids' brains when it seems to me the life lessons that come with K-12 are what matter most.

    And basic math.

    I'm with Yoda on "yeesh" but elmoe has a point about the unnecessary comma. Likes awarded to both :p
     
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  13. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    Just to add a little about how to raise kids into self-sufficient, independent adults who can take care of themselves, look out for others, and succeed.

    This is really for those reading with young kids.

    First, there is a lot of research now that spanking has negative effects. If you were raised that way or raised your kids that way, don't get defensive, no blame here.

    But research helps us understand what parts of old fashioned child rearing are really useful and what's not so much. It turns out that spanking is not a healthy part of raising a strong child. This consensus among researchers literally took decades of studies. It's not some recent, PC idea, but actual science at work, developing with study after study.

    We know shit about this we were still struggling to understand 20 years ago. That's cool.

    Here's the American Psychology Association's position:
    https://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking


    So, what's a good way to raise kids, based on reseach?
    A former dean at Stanford admissions wrote this book (researched while she was pregnant, iirc):

    How to Raise an Adult (that's the title):
    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=how+to+raise+adult&adgrpid=57601891578&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxOjJuKXH4gIVA1qGCh3HRwJBEAAYASAAEgJgafD_BwE&hvadid=274751719594&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=9003565&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14154663196372067609&hvtargid=aud-649564993678:kwd-377161142805&hydadcr=15176_9602976&tag=hydsma-20&ref=pd_sl_kqzj4f4ai_e

    This book is a research based argument against helicopter parenting. Marv would like it as a lot of old-time "go play and figure it out yourselves" turns out to be generally great (minus the bullying, do I really need look shit up on that? Fine, here's some research presented by the APA: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2015/05/bullying-research TL;DR Bullying is shitty with long-term shitty effects and there are ways parents and teachers can deal with it).

    I don't know if researchers have studied butts up, but I sure as hell played it. Chucking an old tennis ball during recess was the shit.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  14. JK47

    JK47 The Beer Houdini

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    I'm really enjoying this thread, and I am also disappointed in the direction of values and work ethic these days. It brings back the memories of my youth, walking to and from school in the snow, uphill... both ways, man that was tough.

    Long gone are the days of paper routes, with it's pitfalls, perils, and source of adventure. I looked forward to chasing down people who didn't pre-pay when billing day came every month. They were literally taking money out of my pocket, and I eventually started helping my friends collect delinquent accounts on their routes as well. It taught responsibility, courage, and perseverance. It's not easy as 9-13 year old to stand up to a strange adult that owes you money and actually get it from them, and on a few occasions, resulted in fist fights with grown men.

    I also remember the air filled grippy rubber balls in various sizes that hit with whoomp, and bounced with a boiiiing, but my weapon of choice was a hockey stick. Lot's of fist and stick fights, as well as rock shooting at each other came from playing street hockey in the neighborhood... The East side of Vancouver, or as a lot of the posers say "East Van". I've had my ass kicked good a few times for sure, but I can also dish it out in spades.

    Sad to see the lack of discipline, rude, self entitled, and a general lax attitude towards everything, last but not least... everyone being treated as a winner, it's just not reality.

    P.S.

    I wrote this after working 37 hours straight (one 45min nap in my truck) helping build the Purple line for Metro Link in Beverly Hill/Century city. I think it's good to bring crime to all parts of the city as an equal opportunity. When Vancouver built their "Skytrain", it was also christened the "Crime Train". It allowed the unsavory characters of the city to reach new untouched areas, quite amazing actually.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  15. LetMeBeFrank

    LetMeBeFrank Won't tell anyone my name is actually Francis

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    Growing up in Detroit in the 90s, when the Red Wings were at their peak and dominating for years, we played a ton of street hockey. Very rough street hockey. Went home many nights with a busted lip and bloody knuckles, but man did that give me confidence to get my hands dirty later in life when necessary.

    Also had a paper route and mowed lawns for cash, bought my first car when I was 14, a 1966 Impala for $900.
     
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  16. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    I'd love to see the research on spanking where it isn't considered child abuse and done strictly out of anger. The article you posted dramatizes things, remains vague and doesn't really show any "consensus amongst experts". Do you have links to unbiased studies about this?

    This article for example has some good points, backed by research also, showing that spanking, in certain circumstances, is highly effective and even optimal: https://goodparent.org/corporal-pun...ce-favoring-the-use-of-disciplinary-spanking/
     
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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    On bullies:

    The best advice I got was from my 7th grade teacher: fight back, even if you lose, they won't pick on you again because it would be too much effort.

    I took this advice to heart. The realization: bullies only pick on the weak.

    While walking back home from junior high school with a family friend, a group of kids accosted us, hurling the typical ching-chong slanty eyed gesture insults (people today would scream racism and post it on FB, but really these were idiot kids with nothing else better to do in a mob mentality).

    They ran into the wheels of my Huffy bike with their Mongoose BMX bikes, one of them showed off his West Coast school Taekwondos katas (I was so tempted to step in, grab his leg, and trip him, but there were six of them). My buddy was the type who wouldn't shut up, so they picked him up and slammed him down onto the street.

    They finally stopped and walked away when I recognized one of them and said "you were on my Little League team, why are you doing this?"

    Anyway, we vowed revenge. I had a sleepover on my b-day that summer. Around 3am, we snuck out of the house with wrenches, crowbars, and spray paint cans; and headed to the house of the "ringleader" of this gang.

    We then proceeded to spray paint penises and boobs over the front of the house, the garage door, and on the two cars parked in the driveway. As a final measure, I attempted to break the car windows, but I found out how difficult this was and instead broke the light fixtures on the outer brick walls of the yard.

    I'm sure someone in my posse talked.

    Maybe a week later, I see the ringleader walking on a bridge with one of minions. I'm alone and I'm thinking "oh shit'. This time around, he didn't even make eye contact. He averted his eyes and just walked past me, pretending he didn't recognize me.

    This was my last year of junior high. I never got into fights again in high school. I had this reputation among the bad kids of a being semi-crazy kid who burned someone's house down (You know how stories get out of hand - evidently there was some confusion with another house where I did start a fire on the porch with alcohol.)

    When kids did pick on me (because they were not aware I was John Wick junior high), I'd flat out look at them straight in the eye and told them I would either burn their house down or murder them with a .38 semi. What would happen next is that the bully would talk to people at lunch and retell the ridiculous things that I said. And then kids who "knew" would go "Uh.. don't mess with him, he seems like a skinny geek and all, but he's crazy and I heard he burned a house down".

    --

    @Kunlun: bullying sucks, but my observation is that the mandated anti-bullying Kumbaya programs are window dressing and doesn't address the real needs:
    1. Adjucation system: who is the bully and who are the victims? The teachers and the kids know who the troublemakers are. Sometimes they are not consulted or their opinions dismissed. It's easier for admins to simply expel rather than seek justice.
    2. Resources: more counselors and better trained and paid yard-narcs who have level 65 powers of observation. Teachers are already stretched to 30+ in a class.
    3. Related to above: a reporting system.
    4. Re-education camps: for the bullies to reintegrate them into society. Short of this, a direct path to the Army or Navy as private or seaman.
    But the fact is, the above is nonsense.

    Despite the anti-bullying programs. One Chinese kid at my son's elementary school transferred because he was bullied and a receipient of "slanty eyed" insults. I asked my son (half-breed, but Asian genes are strong) if this ever happened to him and he said no. I think it was because this Chinese kid was on the FOB side (and psychologically and physically abused by his dad).

    I'll tell you one thing: what boys go through is nothing compared to what girls do to each other. I'd rather take couple punches to the kidneys and pee blood rather than deal with all the psychological shit my daughter has gone through. She's taken and she's dished it.

    I know I've trained her well (don't take shit from nobody) when she flips both fingers at Mom when Mom is not looking. Mom's nag. That's their job.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  18. Kunlun

    Kunlun cat-alyzes cat-aclysmic cat-erwauling - Friend

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    You're saying the American Psychological Association is "biased".
    But some asshole who is the head of an anti-gay hate group* is unbiased... right.

    *http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/...ual-act-that-goes-against-our-natural-design/


    As a bonus, he also talks about his "ability to fight the temptations of Satan and the world."
    http://www.readjourneymagazine.com/...-pediatrician-pediatric-healthcare&Itemid=124

    You can do better than this. Change your ways.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
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  19. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Nevermind Trumbull, he's a blight on humanity. That doesn't mean he's wrong about spanking. The researchers quoted in this article, such as Baumrind who I think has good points here, are unrelated and their studies are legitimate. Her main point is that the large majority of studies done on spanking encompass all of corporal punishment regardless of context, and when you focus on strictly the spanking not out of anger parts, the conclusions of those studies all show that spanking, when done appropriately, does not have any negative effects. So yes, the APA in this case is biased because the research done isn't based strictly on what Baumrind calls authoritative parenting, but also takes into account cases of severe child abuse. When looking strictly at cases where spanking was used with a cool head and seldomly, there were no negative consequences to be found.

    Is the APA going to condemn corporal punishment? Sure, because it isn't used appropriately but instead often out of frustration or anger. That doesn't mean it can't be effective. Maybe if instead of demonizing everything, they took the time to inform the public better, they'd be taken more seriously and 2/3 of Americans wouldn't still believe corporate punishment is a good idea.

    The problem with self sufficient do gooders is that they aren't as relevant or enlightened as they'd like to believe, and by trying to shame people with different opinions into doing what they misguidedly think is right and ignoring factual research that may contradict their point of view, they just end up fueling the fire. That's how TV reality show hosts get elected :)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  20. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Here the plan.

    Some kids play in the yard after school waiting for their parents to pick them up.

    I'm picking up my kid on Monday. We are going to start a pick up game of Butts Up were we get to peg each other and show the other kids how much more fun it is humiliate each other.

    I simply cannot stand by and allow the graduating 5th graders to only know of this Gene Roddenberry United Federation of Planets Socialist version.
     

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