System Synergy - Special Sound

46
@bixby

You forgot one of the main synegizers to the above system and its cost?

From my eye it looks like a very worthwhile tweak...........Is is an Australian cab or Shiraz?
bixby, Oct 20, 2015

 

47
@atomicbob

The synergizer is a Columbia Crest Grand Estates 2012 cab, and goes for approx. $8 US. 90 pts from Wine Spectator. Another exceptional value.
atomicbob, Oct 20, 2015

 

48
@lm4der

atomicbob said: ↑
"The synergizer is a Columbia Crest Grand Estates 2012 cab, and goes for approx. $8 US. 90 pts from Wine Spectator. Another exceptional value."

Oh yeah, the Columbia Valley wines are among the best bang for buck.

Edit: I like Chateau St. Michelle, runs for about $12
lm4der, Oct 20, 2015

 

49
johnjen

atomicbob said: ↑
"snip
…However, I've not seen channel matching as excellent as in all three Schiit MB DACs before, either. So the channel matching may be a large contributor to the 2 channel realism.
snip"

A ways back when I played with channel matching I figured out that it’s one of those ‘key’ aspects along with several others, which can contribute mightily to a magnificent sound stage. Of course the entire system needs to be able to reflect this degree of matching, but when achieved the results can truly be spectacular.

And these days we can add a variety of different types of compensation to the entire system much easier, with greater accuracy, and with fewer 'consequences', even before the front end, using DSP.
Whereas analog sources usually have far less specificity.
Like, can you imagine adjusting the entire systems channel balance by ±0.1dB using a volume control knob?
And yes it can be done but at what cost?

But more to the point, these days some of us even have the ability, at home, to measure and quantify their speaker systems responses given a wide variety of situations and gear and in many cases (ie. channel balance etc.) adjustments can be made quite easily and with precision.
A sharpening of the focus if you will.

It was this single bit of complexity that is inherent with a mechanically based signal (re)generation system (a rock in a spiral groove, trying NOT to get thrown out) that convinced me to abandon analog for the less cumbersome AND much less expensive digital format of signal retrieval.
Especially if I wanted to continue to pursue what "sharpening of the focus" could lead me.

The ability to tighten the focus of many variables in the system while being much less cumbersome (read $$ not $$$$+) because of the much easier control accorded using DSP, allows us to gain tighter focus in multiple domains (FR, channel matching etc.) all at the same time.

And no, digital isn't at the same SQ level as the best that analog can offer, not quite yet, especially for the vast majority of folks, and mostly due to cost.
And with this latest Schiit gear, even a $600 dac in a ≈ $1500 system is enthralling, captivating and compelling.

So now instead of spending $x10^6+ we are in the $x10^4 range, which is orders of magnitude cheaper, and wind up being REALLY close in terms of SQ.
And this IS more than end game for the majority of folks.

And for me THIS is why high end audio is fading away, it's simply far to costly for the vast majority of folks.
A really good analog based speaker system + room etc. is just WAY to fraq'n expensive and time consuming for the average, or even above average audio oriented listener.

But I digress…

So as we continue to dial in channel matching and many other related variables with a finer and finer degree of focus, for less and less cost, we all win!


Interesting, intriguing and compelling times in audio indeed, for more and more folks.

JJ
johnjen, Oct 20, 2015

 

50
@Altrunox

@atomicbob , have you ever tried the Project Horizon?
Looks to be almost the same as the Sunrise, but aimed for higher impedance cans, maybe, even better synergy?
Altrunox, Oct 26, 2015

 

51
@atomicbob

Altrunox said: ↑
"@atomicbob , have you ever tried the Project Horizon?
Looks to be almost the same as the Sunrise, but aimed for higher impedance cans, maybe, even better synergy?"

No, unfortunately I haven't heard the Horizon. When looking at the two, I wanted to have a wider range of impedances served by the hybrid, given I already have a Bottlehead Crack which does high impedance very nicely.
atomicbob, Oct 26, 2015

 

52
AustinValentine

I wanted to get a sense of the difference between the Gungnir Multibit and my AMB Gamma2, just to see just how large of a delta between the two I could hear with the modded HD650s. So this is the setup I've been running since last evening:

Schit Wyrd > y2 (Filter B) > Schiit Mjolnir 2 (Amperex 6DJ8/ECC88s, Holland Orange Globes, A-Frame, Steel Pins) > Modded HD650.
<IMAGE>

Thoughts & Observations:

1. Tonally, these two DACs could be cousins. See how they line up on Marv's DAC chart? I was skeptical that they'd be quite that close to one another. They are exactly that close. The Gungnir Multibit has less high end roll off and the y2 has slightly more bass body/presence. The differences are really small.

2. Notice that high gain toggle and 12 o'clock pot placement? I'm not a high volume listener and the Mjolnir 2 is a pretty beefy desktop amp. That's how much difference your DAC output power can have on the volume output of your system. The y2's output power is only 1.2V. The single ended output of the Gungnir Multibit is 2V, balanced is 4V. With the Gungnir Multibit, I mostly listen at between 8-9 on high gain. On lower volume recordings with the y2, I have to crank it up to nearly 1 o'clock.

3. The biggest difference between the two: microdetail. On better recordings, breath, whispering, and small spatial/positioning queues all seem to vanish when moving between the y2 and the Gungnir Multibit. I have three different versions of Hell Freezes Over (5.1 DTS, XRCD, and a standard 1994 CD rip) and with the Gungnir Multibit, the differences between the recordings are far, far more apparent. (Note: The difference here would likely be smaller with a bipassed ASRC chip, as with OJNeg's that was on loan a while back, but my y2 isn't.) Score yet another one for Marv's chart - the delta in resolution seems to be fairly represented there.

4. I'm posting about listening to this here specifically because this setup really sounds good together. If I hadn't heard the Gungnir Multibit, or had less resolving transducers than the HD650/HD800 (and the HE-6 and HE-560 as well), I'd be completely satisfied with this pairing. Gamma2's generally pop up on the open market at $250 or less...and way less if you can DIY. A B-Stock Schiit Mjolnir 2 with stock tubes is only is $769 + shipping. Add in ~$300 for a used HD650 and around $100 for some decent aftermarket tubes and it's a slightly warm, highly musical sounding system for around $1500. A used HE-500 (~$450) or a refurbished PM-2 ($499) would also be nice pairings for this setup if one were ortho-inclined.

5. I can't help but think that with this kind of resolution difference a Headphone Plankton/Low-level Detail/Microdetail Companion Chart would be an incredibly useful resource. Listening with my stock PM-1s, the massive detail monsters that they are (#sarcasm), the extra nearly 1k spent on the Gungnir Multibit would almost be a waste of money. This kind of resource would almost certainly have to be another project built around correlated group subjective impressions. (It's not as if measuring plankton hasn't been discussed after all. But I get the sense that that's a bit of a dry well, at least for now.)

AustinValentine, Oct 27, 2015

 

53
drfindley

A setup I'm really enjoying:

Audirvana/Tidal > Gungnir Multibit > Black Widow > Enigmas. While the BW does have bit of a "tubey" sound, it pairs incredibly well with orthos. In fact, I like the LCD 2.2s out of it quite a bit as well (as much as one enjoys an LCD 2). It's especially delightful with my Enigmas.
drfindley, Oct 27, 2015

 

54
@OJneg

AustinValentine said: ↑
"I wanted to get a sense of the difference between the Gungnir Multibit and my AMB Gamma2, just to see just how large of a delta between the two I could hear with the modded HD650s. So this is the setup I've been running since last evening:

Schit Wyrd > y2 (Filter B) > Schiit Mjolnir 2 (Amperex 6DJ8/ECC88s, Holland Orange Globes, A-Frame, Steel Pins) > Modded HD650.

Click to expand..."

gamma2 + Wyrd is certainly effective
OJneg, Oct 27, 2015

 

55
@Pyruvate

drfindley said: ↑
"A setup I'm really enjoying:

Audirvana/Tidal > Gungnir Multibit > Black Widow > Enigmas. While the BW does have bit of a "tubey" sound, it pairs incredibly well with orthos. In fact, I like the LCD 2.2s out of it quite a bit as well (as much as one enjoys an LCD 2). It's especially delightful with my Enigmas."

I'm glad to hear of these pairings. BW has definitely been on my watch list and it's great to hear that it doesn't make the LCD2.2s/Enigmas sound too gooey. Any idea how Bifrost Multibit would sound within that chain? I'm wondering if I can settle and be happy with Bifrost Multibit > BW and not have to worry about excess warmth.
Pyruvate, Oct 27, 2015

 

56
drfindley

Pyruvate said: ↑
"Any idea how Bifrost Multibit would sound within that chain? I'm wondering if I can settle and be happy with Bifrost Multibit > BW and not have to worry about excess warmth."

I bet that would be a rather awesome pairing. I'm not sure how warm it'd sound, but I bet it's would be just fine.
drfindley, Oct 27, 2015

 

57
drfindley

Giving the Bifrost Multibit a listen. Bill tends to be rather sensitive to frequency response. I'd say the Bifrost Multibit is slightly warmer, but it's not something overwhelming by any means, just rather slight.
drfindley, Oct 28, 2015

 

58
@atomicbob

Though exhausted from a 19 hr day of research, a Liquid Crimson showed up today. In spite of the warnings that the best will come in about 150 more hours, I can't stop listening to yet another major step up in the level of realism realized by this system; Multifrost+LiquidCrimson+HD650. However, this does not stay within the concept of budget mindedness, more like out of this world sound but with a much higher investment required (the Liquid Crimson is 10x the price of the Project Sunrise III).

@purrin Muddy Waters Folk Singer MFSL sounds spectacular on this system.

atomicbob, Oct 28, 2015

 

59
@kirayamato

@drfindley how do you like your black widow with your stock hd800 compared to the ragnarok?
kirayamato, Oct 28, 2015

 

60
drfindley

kirayamato said: ↑
'"@drfindley how do you like your black widow with your stock hd800 compared to the ragnarok?"

The BW is sweeter and smoother and the transients are less sharp compared to the Rag. I find them both to be rather resolving (though not as resolving as a EC Studio)
drfindley, Oct 29, 2015

 

PAGE 4 of the O.G. thread...

 

61
johnjen

Hoo Boy…
1st up, a hearty THANKS to atomicbob for this opportunity to explore the differences between the Bifrost Multibit and Gungnir Multibit dacs.
We talked about a great many things, listened to some fine music, tweaked the setup, compared notes, and we both learned a great deal.
Which really is the best part.
AND since we both agreed with a great deal of the info we shared, we both confirmed (to ourselves anyway) we AREN'T CRAZY, or, er, well, any more crazy than the rest of you who will read this.

And now the rest of the story…

So to set the scene and paint a picture of who and what was involved here…
Think DR. Science and the neighborhood kid, Jimmy, in the back of the good DRs. laboratory with all of the sciency stuff glowing and humming with a bunch of ongoing experiments in one state of operation or another.
And then DR. Science sez,
“Here Jimmy, hold these 2 wires…”
So of course Jimmy gets to experience, first hand, the wonders of electricity and for these experiments some acoustics as well.

These are the results of this joint effort…

We were using a bel canto e.One REFlink DDC (digital to digital converter) to send a SPDIF data stream to both DACS which was fed via usb from the laptop, running JRiver, Sonarworks Ref 3 plug-in, in Windoz 10.
And we used a Radial Engineering TwinISO balanced to SE converter, which uses Jensen transformers, so it’s a passive conversion.
This way we could try either the balanced or the SE outputs from the Gungnir Multibit and compare them to the Bifrost Multibit.

We also were using a Goldpoint (SA1X) passive balanced attenuator to level match the balanced to SE converted outputs of the Gungnir Multibit to the Bifrost Multibit.
We did manage to get them matched within ≈ 0.26dB.
And we used a 2nd Goldpoint (SA2) passive attenuator and selector, for the A/B function to control (with fixed steps for easy repeatability) the overall gain to the amp.

Our conclusions are (the envelope please)…
The Bifrost Multibit (SE only) and Gungnir Multibit (using the SE output) are or can be REALLY close.
Cables will have a greater net effect, (ie. will further 'color' the end results), MOAR than the differences between these 2 dacs, in SE mode.

We played around with SE interconnects and where the 'best' cables went, that was the 'better' sound.
In fact when we 1st started, the Bifrost Multibit had the ‘best’ cables and the Gungnir Multibit had the ‘not best’ cables.
I figured (not yet knowing this) based upon the overall sound signature I was listening to the Gungnir Multibit when in fact it was the Bifrost Multibit.
So we switched the SE cables and even tried a pair of real short Pyst cables, and that’s when we figured out that the ‘best’ DAC followed the ‘best’ cables.
When identical cables were used the differences were so close, it was simply amazing.
Yes there were barely perceptible differences, but they were so slight, I lack the vocabulary to enunciate them with any real degree of elucidation…

In addition I heard a reduction in output of upper mid to top end when the signal passed thru the balanced to SE passive xfrmr and passive balanced attenuator. Which in some cases (think poorly mastered CD’s with ‘etch’) could be of benefit.
So the SE outputs from the Gungnir Multibit was ‘better’ than the converted balanced outputs, in terms of matching the SQ output to the Bifrost Multibit, when driving a SE’d amp, using this setup.

So in effect if you’re running in SE mode only, the Bifrost Multibit is a no brainer at $600.
And if you have a balanced amp then, perhaps, the Gungnir Multibit or Yggdrasil might be worth twice or 4 times the cost of the Bifrost Multibit.

We were using the Project Sunrise III amp and after we dropped the output impedance to it’s lowest setting while feeding both the 800's or the 650’s, the bass came up nicely as well as a tetch bit more 'sparkle' (slightly better inner details and definition) in the mids and up.

I think that was when we heard a guy cough/wheeze at the beginning of the Reference Recording of the Firebird suite in 172.4K native rez.
What I heard was a guy semi-stifling a cough (he exhaled/wheezed over a second or 2 instead of a plosive cough) during a sorta quieter passage in the first minute or so.
It’s like when you hear someone drop a pencil or pen on the floor, or the shuffling of paper (sheet music?) or the musicians joking in the background, or hear the ‘degree’ of audience participation etc., all while the musicians are playing.
But what is truly significant here is not that you can hear these background ‘events’, but that you can clearly identify them for what they are.
THAT is when you know you’re hearing something special.

And now that this level of ‘transparency’ has become available in a $600 dac, well I figure the dac world is in for, shall we say, a bit of a re-shuffle.

We both agreed that the Sonarworks EQ plug-in REALLY helped as well, especially when it gets dialed in by playing with the ‘knobs’ just a bit.

Interesting Observation Alert!
Has anyone else noticed the comments being made recently, with increasing regularity, that people are finding it REALLY HARD to take their headphones off and STOP listening?
These Multibit dacs are delivering this level of IMPERATIVE involvement at a price point that ANYone who wants a decent headphone based audio system can afford, even if it’s one piece at a time.
Lately, I too have been subjected to this extra late night, blurried eyes in the morning routine, but my dac didn’t cost $600.
And to be able to listen to a system that is so captivating and involving that it DEMANDS your attention to the point that it’s 3am and you think, just one more, and no I won’t look at the clock, I don’t want to know what time it is…

I’m seeing more and more evidence of this is happening…

And now back to our regular program of dance music…
er no, wait,
what…?

So in this case, when the phase reversal trick, along with, the Sonarworks DSP plugin, (after tweaking it just a bit), and adding just a touch of subsonic bass, are all combined with this system, the end results are most gratifying.
And in some cases the results can be quite unexpected.

Next we simplified the entire setup and used the Bifrost Multibit via a direct USB data feed from the laptop to the Sunrise amp driving the 800’s and 650’s.
I immediately noticed a change in the ‘density’ of the acoustical soundstage. The USB had more ‘there’ there, when compared to the usb to spdif converted signal we were using previously.
It had greater impact and what I refer to as coupling. This is where the acoustical energy has more ‘power’ behind it.
IOW the signal presented to my ears had more presence, power, and impact due to what I describe as better timing and precision in terms of the reconstructed analog signal from its digital source.

THEN we played around with the short (11" to ≈ 24") 4pin xlr to 1/4" balanced to unbalanced adapters, which we used to plug in the balanced HPs into the Sunrise amp.

I really was amazed at how much difference we could hear between the 6 different adapters.
I figured it might be rather slight to near impossible to tell, I mean it’s like all we did was try 6 different chunks of 1-2’ of wire, but instead there was a great deal more variation than I anticipated.
It may have had something to do with the different lengths, except the 2 ‘best’ were almost the longest and almost the shortest cables of the bunch.
It may have something to do with metallurgy, or perhaps the physical construction of the wires, but again the 2 ‘best’ were radically different types of wires, so I really can’t say why these 2 were the ‘best’ of those we had on hand.

Here is the collection of cables we used.
Maybe we should see who can guess which pair were the best?


And here is the whole setup after being reduced down to it’s simplest configuration.


That Sunrise amp is a real sleeper.
To be able to pair well with both the 650’s and 800’s means it scales really well right along with the Bifrost Multibit and with other ‘optional’ hardware tweaks (like a better outboard power supply, cables, etc.)
It has the best of all worlds, (runs in class A, NO feedback, tube and mosfet, 6 or 12 volt tubes, easy bias etc. etc.) all neatly setup in an easy to tweak/configure/tube roll/package.
And it scales REALLY well right along with the HD 650’s

Which all combine in this killer ≈ $1500 system to make for hours and hours of tweaking and listening enjoyment.
AND this is not only a REALLY good starter package, but is good enough to act as a reference system for any further improvements, or for building a second system.


Here is the list of equipment we used during all of this.

JRiver MC20 in Windoz 10
Sonarworks Ref 3 HP compensation DSP plug-in
bel canto e.One REFlink USB to SPDIF converter
Schiit Gungnir MB DAC (Gungnir Multibit)
Schiit Bifrost MB DAC (Bifrost Multibit)
Garage 1217 Project Sunrise III amp with Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 tube
Talema LPS 25VA linear power supply for PS-III
Goldpoint SA2 passive attenuation with switch for A/B selection
Goldpoint SA1X balanced passive attenuation (Gungnir Multibit balance output matching)
Radial Engineering TwinISO with Jensen transformers (balanced to unbalance conversion)
Sennheiser HD650 headphones (stock) BTG Audio Sunset cable
Sennheiser HD800 headphones (stock) Norne Audio Draug cable
Sennheiser HD800 headphones (modded) SAA Endorphine cable, hardwired
Tecnec SPDIF cables with Canare LV-77S broadcast video 75 ohm cable.
AudioQuest Forest USB cable
Sescom XLRM to XLRF cables with Neutrik connectors and Canare L-4E6S starquad cable
Sescom XLRF to RCA cables with Neutrik connectors and Canare L-4E6S starquad cable
Custom XLRF to XLRM four pin polarity reversal adapter with Neutrik connectors and Canare L-4E6S cable
DH Labs Silver Sonic Air Matrix RCA interconnects
Schiit Pyst RCA interconnects
Blue Jeans cables RCA interconnects
* Q Audio TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter
* Custom TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Neutrik TRS and XLR connectors, Canare L-4E6S cable)
* BTG Audio Sunset TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Furutech TRS, Neutrik XLR)
* Norne Audio Draug TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter
* Custom TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Neutrik connector and cut end of HD600 stock cable with TRS connector)
* Zy Hifi TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter

Music from 44.1K to 192K
HD Tracks and Reference Recordings for high rez sources.

The *’d items are the adapters we tested…

All in all, we learned some really ‘gud’ stuff’!


So Jimmy did live to tell the tale, for one and all to read and gain a few more data points from, even after holding those 2 wires.

But now Jimmy’s dilemma has grown even greater…
Bifrost Multibit - $600 ?
Gungnir Multibit - $600 x 2 ?
Yggdrasil - $600 x 4 ?

Which one is the ‘right’ one for Jimmy’s requirements…?

Choices - choices, decisions - decision,
It’s so hard to choose, any more.
B, or G, or J?


JJ
johnjen, Oct 29, 2015

 

62
@Priidik

For those ready to get their air polluted by some solder flux fumes, quite a nice budget friendly rig is EHHA rev A and Soekris Dam dac with HD650 or HD800 for under 1k$ parts cost.
While not exactly giant killer rig as it's not quite going to equal a Yggdrasil+EC 2a3 MK2 combo per say, it's still not outleaqued (subject to point of reference of course).

Edit: Why? The proposed rig outputs robust and complete sound from HD800 and HD650 unlike numerous other similarly priced options I have tried. The Ehha will lack the final word in fluidity and microdynamics of good triode amp, while still besting a freakin' 10k$ Pinnacle as a whole package. The Soekris Dam will lack the ultimate grip of sound trails and soundstage completeness of Yggs, but then what do you expect for the money. Soekris's dac will be better match to HD650 (old) as it holds these back less and is better synergy tonally.
Priidik, Nov 2, 2015

 

63
@bixby

johnjen said: ↑
"Hoo Boy…
1st up, a hearty THANKS to atomicbob for this opportunity to explore the differences between the Bifrost Multibit and Gungnir Multibit dacs.

Our conclusions are (the envelope please)…
The Bifrost Multibit (SE only) and Gungnir Multibit (using the SE output) are or can be REALLY close.
Cables will have a greater net effect, (ie. will further 'color' the end results), MOAR than the differences between these 2 dacs, in SE mode.

Next we simplified the entire setup and used the Bifrost Multibit via a direct USB data feed from the laptop to the Sunrise amp driving the 800’s and 650’s.
I immediately noticed a change in the ‘density’ of the acoustical soundstage. The USB had more ‘there’ there, when compared to the usb to spdif converted signal we were using previously.
It had greater impact and what I refer to as coupling. This is where the acoustical energy has more ‘power’ behind it.
IOW the signal presented to my ears had more presence, power, and impact due to what I describe as better timing and precision in terms of the reconstructed analog signal from its digital source.


I really was amazed at how much difference we could hear between the 6 different adapters.
I figured it might be rather slight to near impossible to tell, I mean it’s like all we did was try 6 different chunks of 1-2’ of wire, but instead there was a great deal more variation than I anticipated.
It may have had something to do with the different lengths, except the 2 ‘best’ were almost the longest and almost the shortest cables of the bunch.
It may have something to do with metallurgy, or perhaps the physical construction of the wires, but again the 2 ‘best’ were radically different types of wires, so I really can’t say why these 2 were the ‘best’ of those we had on hand.

Click to expand..."

Wow, really nice, in depth write-up. Funny how the cables can make some rather big changes vs dacs. And so many get so amped up on dac differences and which is best, etc, then they go and throw a Monoprice cable in the mix and say cables don't matter. Well, they shouldn't but do. Nice to hear someone else says they can hear more difference in a cable swap than between two fairly disparately priced dacs.

This kind of brings another dilemma to Jimmy's table. How much to you allocate in dollars for cables and when do you reach the point where you find a great value cable and pair it with the most expensive dac vs a pricier one and the lower priced dac. Again, sanity would have to rule, and there are great sounding cables for not a lot of money.

As for the USB direct vs SPDIF arrangement. I have a friend who uses a DS Gungnir and has ordered a Gungnir Multibit, but runs it via coax spdif, Hydra Z bridge, fed by powerless USB from IFi Power, via another powerless USB back to a Mac mini. My question to him was how much of what you are hearing is the 5 connections you have lashed before the dac? ..........no answer...............

And my guess for the better sounding adapters are:
BTG Audio Sunset
Custom TRS to 4-pin XLRF adapter (Neutrik connector and cut end of HD600 stock cable with TRS connector)

Thanks for the write-up and opinions. Very informative!
bixby, Nov 2, 2015

 

64
@batriq

Somewhat related to the "cable" question: I noticed in the pictured the stock PCs were used. Do aftermarket power chords make a difference with the MB DACs? Did you guys try any, and if not, do you have any experience with changing the stock PC for at least the Bifrost MB?
batriq, Nov 2, 2015