The Game of Thrones Thread (With Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by ultrabike, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Oh, it's only 163. Maybe a 1000 more when Astapor was sacked before that. At least she let the kids in junior high and below live and be exploited as slaves by the former slaves. I'm sure the Unsullied enjoyed spearing the wives and the teens of the Good Masters and their middle class associates.

    And the 9000 more at Kings Landing? Wow, now that's a totally unimaginable stretch from before.

    Maybe the Tyrion's monologue about him not seeing certain things about Danys should have given in the same episode after KL was burnt to a crisp.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  2. Elnrik

    Elnrik Super Friendly

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    9000? Didn't they say in previous episodes that 1 million people called Kings Landing home?
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Oh 500,000. What's the difference.
     
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  4. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    You got me on that reference. I will consult with the Oracle of Thrones. My wife.
     
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  5. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    20 million Russians killed in WW II. GOT is kids play.
     
  6. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar was: dingleberry; now: chill + interesting

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    Choosing the wrong king is a ridiculous modern notion in a feudal society too and another example of dumb show writing. Pre-modern people did not have the same concept of individualism and free choice as we do now. Kierkegaard and others have gotten really into this if you want to read more.

    Westeros is feudal like most of medieval europe, japan, and much of the middle east. Feudalism is not at all a free society. Everyone not the highest overlord has to do what they're told and isn't legally free. Norman England and Imperial Russia were some of the most unfree.

    Norman England makes everything on Game of Thrones look easy. If GRRM stuck something similar in there, nobody would believe it. Only the king, William and sons, is free. The king legally owns all the land by right of conquest as he said so. William's goons were initially satisfied as he gave them the use and revenue of his land, the source of agricultural wealth, in one of the only countries in Europe with a government strong enough to collect taxes. However William fucked them all over; he granted use of HIS LAND piecemeal, made his top goons grant use of his land they were granted use of piecemeal, and made sure the average feudal lord only had a few knights and was living in a slightly bigger thatch root hut on a hill. Good luck fighting the king's massive army with the 5 guys on horseback and 50 dudes with spears. Not that you'd ever be able to gather them together to form a posse; they might be dozens or hundreds of miles away. Nobody built stone castles until the 12th century as they weren't allowed to and couldn't afford them. Tax day? The nobles couldn't read and write and the king knew exactly what they owned down to the amount of cows, oxen, ploughs, and Englishmen. The tax rate wasn't fixed but rather was whatever you can pay and then some to force you into debt to the state. The meanest Lannister around would never think of something so exploitative.

    The economics of GOT aren't well thought out and are more smash and grab like vikings. Medieval warbands are incentivized by loot but they still need to feed themselves and the lord needs some cash to be able to force his knights into doing truly humiliating stuff to show who truly doesn't have to shovel shit. Like be legally obligated to drop whatever you are doing in your castle and serve as the nighttime security guard at his outhouse for two months of the year. That was an actual complaint from Norman England because hell yeah that land came with strings attached.

    More idiotic writing. I doubt even 100,000 people live in modern Dubrovnik.

    it's probably pre-modern exaggeration from the book taken by Dumb & Dumber as facts for the books world. Remember pre-modern people can't really do math. All of the numbers you see in old texts are way off symbolic figures that just mean "a lot" and are usually just really big juicy numbers like a million, symbolic numbers, or oddly specific ones meant to give them credence that's just not there. So all the big numbers in the ASOIF books, written from the perspective of various characters, would be approximations, symbolic, or fucking ridiculous if they were well written books and GRRM was a better writer. Maybe the Iron Bank might have something approaching a ledger book but that's about it.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  7. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    A 7 year build up as overcoming horrible obstacles to be the hero of the common folk going from doling out Westerosi Frontier Justice to slaughtering tens of thousands of those very same common folk after a couple of rough weeks... it's inconsistent.
     
  8. muse

    muse Almost "Made"

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    I've touched on this before and I'll say it again. The character of Sansa Stark is by far the most infuriating and misunderstood in the entire season 8.

    No seriously. That her last major contribution was to simply request (and to nobody's surprise - approved) that the North remain as an independent kingdom is just fitting of what a completely shit person she is.

    If it isn't clear already, for any 'growth' or 'success' that Sansa ever had, it was down to personal vendettas and all-round selfishness, and nothing else really.

    Her constant need to champion the North as an officially accepted, independent Kingdom from the rest of the realm was completely superficial and unnecessary. Not even her father Ned Stark saw any need to legitimize the Starks and allied houses in the North having some degree of autonomy from the King/Queen.

    She questioned the leadership of Jon and seeked to disagree and undermine him every step of the way. Had no care whatsoever for any of his internal turmoil, no matter how much she professed to love him like a brother. No care about his parentage whatsoever except to weaponize it against the one person who would maybe pose some threat to the 'North is FREE' campaign she was championing so hard for. No concern for his general well-being and love for Danaerys (why you love her?? stupid blind brother!!), and the complete simplemindedness that loving Danaerys and serving the interests of the North weren't mutually exclusive aims.

    Nobody held her accountable for almost instantaneously breaking an oath to Jon in exchange for him revealing his secret. Nobody called her out for her completely unwarranted antagonism towards Danaerys, her petulant ungratefulness towards Danaerys literally sacrificing almost everything to save Winterfell and her house from extinction.

    One could argue that Danaerys completely withholding any form of punishment of Sansa by virtue of her being a Stark was more an exercise of self-restraint than anything Sansa showed.
     
  9. muse

    muse Almost "Made"

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    And if you want to talk about what was truly best for the Seven Kingdoms, well then Danaerys was exactly it.

    No, not Danerys v2.0 mad queen, but the one who in spite of her mean streak, did things out of a greater sense of purpose and necessity. Who despite her methods, clearly cared for the welfare and freedom of her people. Much in part because she had good advisors who, appealed to her better nature, reined in her bad tendencies, and kept her inner fire in check by channeling in towards positive outcomes.

    Tyrion devolving in shit and dumb character obviously didn't help. Varys devolving into a shit and simplistic character didn't help. Both of them spent an immeasurable amount of time coming to the conclusion that she was an imperfect queen whom needed strong counsel to become a great one, but then either abandoned their sworn duties and shit the bed, or somehow forgot everything that their characters had undergone to get to that juncture.

    Her counsel turned to shit. Her allies were shitty and ungrateful people. Instead of questioning why a mad queen was fit to rule, and whining about her shortcomings, maybe they should have sucked it up and spent time instead pondering how much of a colossal fuck up on their part it took to pet the 'mad' in 'mad queen'.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I never bought the "hero of the common folk" before and now even less. It was always who she could manipulate or appeal to so that they would blindly follow her. In Essos, it happened to be the "common folk".*

    If she couldn't do that, then they were dead. She didn't even give Dickon Tarly 5 seconds to more deeply consider. The Unsullied, the ones who "graduated", likely had a collective IQ of 86. From being slaves to the Good Masters to slaves of Danys.

    The only reason Danys didn't toast Winterfel and Sansa is because Sansa knows how to stay alive by STFU when the circumstances are not in her favor.

    * How many power hungry Romans used the "common folk" to seize and maintain power?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  11. muse

    muse Almost "Made"

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    She did whatever had been consistent in the realm in the entire history of the realm. Bend the knee, or die.

    I'm not sure where this double standard is coming from, where the fact that the whole GoT universe is intrinsically violent and bleak simply gets overlooked now that Danaerys is doing it. Why are we suddenly trying to impose real world concepts of freedom and justice on this show?

    There are countless numbers of Westerosi figures who have done things equal or worse to Danaerys (up to uncharacteristically murdering millions in KL of course).

    The capability of a person being fit to rule (in this universe) doesn't have 'aversion to violence' up there too highly as a criteria. Violence in this show has always been means to an end. Danaerys always had that end in mind.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Her impetuousness. An indicator of her batshit crazy tendencies.

    Neither Randyl or Dickon were threats at this point. More could be gained if they were allies. Throw them in the dungeon for a few weeks or month. If they don't change their mind, then toast them.

    There is no double standard. Not everyone was deranged like the Boltons or Freys, or batshit crazy. Tywin wasn't. He carefully crafted alliances and power - and exceeded expectations.

    Robb Stark would have won if he hadn't put his dick in the wrong place. He wasn't a bad dude.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  13. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

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    This thread needs more memes:
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. muse

    muse Almost "Made"

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    Yeah I get that. Again, that's coming from a real world DIY guide on how to deal with your adversaries. But not so much in Westeros.

    Ned Stark beheaded the dude in S1E1. Guy wasn't a threat. Could have given him more of a fair trial with a PI team to examine his claims of white walkers.

    Jon killed Janos Slynt instantaneously even though the idiot actually repented at the end and would at the very least have made an extra body count against the white walkers.

    Killing people for insubordination in this universe was never taboo. Until it somehow became so.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Different situations and context.

    Ned and Jon in their respective scenarios are not vying to be ruler of Westeros. Ned's and Jon's roles were that of military officers, enforcing military law, executing solders who deserted or demonstrated insubordination.

    Dany was in a position where she could have shown mercy, possibly win some of the hearts of the people of Westeros in the long run as a future Queen. Instead of trying she went batshit crazy, drunk with the power of three medieval Death Stars. She could have easily spared Dickon too.

    I bet Jon, Robb, Tywin would have done things differently than her when it came to Randyl and Dickon.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  16. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    Instead she chose to make an example out of enemies who had been offered a choice, during a war that she felt she was losing, which still struck me as pretty plausible. Roasting those two wasn't exactly polite, and along with Varys might have signaled the beginning of her descent, but all I'm sayin' is that after a 7 years, that descent needed to take longer than a few weeks to be believable. Had that descent unfolded over a season, and had that season been well written, I think that season could have been captivating.

    Dany was a completely different character to me for the last two episodes than she was for the first ~70 and there wasn't enough in the abbreviated plot to motivate that change.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I wouldn't disagree that her descent into madness was not handled well by the showrunners or the decision to skimp on episodes.

    Tyrion's explanation to Jon was welcome, but seemed too little too late. Fuck D&D. Can't wait for them to fuck up Star Wars. These two dudes are idiots who got lucky that 50-60% of the story was already written by someone with significantly more imagination.
     
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  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Dany was not that different.

    If Dany was paraded around Essos "Shame" style, and later on Drogon showed up to the party, Whops! there goes the neighborhood.

    If Cercei showed up at Dragonstone and urged Dany to bend the knee, or else it's on her that Highgarden gets it, the answer wouldn't be no, but fuck no.

    The difference is in ideology. Anti-slavery Dany vs. Aristocratic Cercei. And it's easy to say, Dany "Braker of Chains". It's hypocrisy (or in this case given the seriousness of the consequences dragon-shit craziness). Be free of your chains to adore me as the next coming of Azor Ahai and obey my commands, or be free of your chains to fucking die.

    What this show does very well is creating a first impression (again, this is a social psychology term), and use that to manipulate audience perception. I don't know of many shows that have done that to this level. It's pretty interesting to me. First impressions, if I remember correctly, are proven to be almost impossible to correct. They are very stable.

    But other things are obviously irritating. Mainly the plot solutions in the last seasons that indicate D&D don't know WTF they are doing. Or care, with the same end result.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    One could make an argument that Cercei had a tendency to hide behind common folk, while Dany did not.

    But it is apparent that Dany had no problem removing common folk, if they got in the way.

    This perhaps should have been developed more clearly, and perhaps this is the central problem about her descend to madness.

    Note however that ever since she set foot on Westeros, plan A was to light up KL. And therefore in some ways then Tarly was right. If she had no problem burning KL because she did not see them as her own, then she was indeed a foreign invader with no ties to the land.

    I don't know either how it maters to break the chains of folks she considers disposable. It goes to show how way out there she was. Again, if I recall correctly plan A to burn KL was on the table almost from day one. Tyron and Varys looking at each other begging Dany to all consider sorts of alternative action.

    Much better alternatives existed of course. But the writers were too lazy or incapable to formulate the reasons why such alternatives could not be carried out. Other than trying to wrap things up quickly to get going on SW.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  20. Jinxy245

    Jinxy245 Vegan Puss

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