The Game of Thrones Thread (With Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by ultrabike, Jun 28, 2017.

  1. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar was: dingleberry; now: chill + interesting

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Medieval people who hate each other and want each others heads on sticks sit together in a circle and decide to let someone they hate pick who gets to lord over them? Medieval nobles let lower ranking nobles, who are obliged to do what they are told or else, talk back to them? What? Letting people who don't count vote for something? What year is this? 1776? The manipulative medieval noble chick with the biggest, most bloodthirsty army left lets a stupid drunken dwarf tell her what to do? What the fuck?

    Where's the massive battle where Greyworm and co have to fight their way out of a ruined city with no food in it because Sansa is starving them to death? Why would she even talk to them instead of making them decide to either 1. Starve to death 2. Run at guys holding long pointy things screaming and hope they don't die?

    Also massacring cities that didn't surrender was pretty common and happened all the time. The show wants to condition the viewer that it's a horrible warcrime that makes her into Dragon Hitler but that's the standard operating procedure of pre-modern warfare: surrender or die like Alan Rickman said in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  2. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

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    I did wonder how that'd go, given the current CEO of Riverrun was at the Board meeting...
     
  3. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    The city surrendered though, and Dany had been built up for 7 years as the savior of the common people, who she suddenly decided to murder by the thousands. Had it been Cersie murdering thousands, nobody would have questioned it.
     
  4. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar was: dingleberry; now: chill + interesting

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    They all say said that shit. Read what pre-modern rulers actually wrote and had written about themselves. They burned the village to save the village all god damn day.

    yeah after they started attacking. That doesn't count in 1300 man.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    They did that in WWII too: Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Nagsaki, Hiroshima.

    This is what I dislike about modern war conducted by Western countries today. Either we just totally avoid it or go all-out. This war with rules shit doesn't work and has never worked. Not going all-out (and then rebuilding from scratch or wiping the defeated off the face of the earth) means unstable societies and governments for fifteen, twenty, fifty, a hundred years.
     
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  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    It isn't 1300, but it's GOT, which seems to be like 2-3 times worse than any of the shenanigans pulled off by warring city-states or nations from 1100 to 1945.

    The city or Cersei, the ruler of the city, did not surrender before the siege. Surrendering after the fight starts often did not work. It's human instinct once in war mode to stay in war mode. Anger, rage, chaos - these are difficult things to reverse course.

    Dany didn't suddenly do it. As mentioned, the books illustrate her bat-shit crazy like tendencies more than the television series. Maybe you missed it, but in the penultimate episode, the Imp recounted her bat-shit crazy tendencies to Jon (and the audience) and regretted not seeing them earlier because he so much wanted to hope. I love this because this is a common human failing... wanting to hope, stuff like hoping that we would all get Star Trek like affordable health-care, but instead getting a system where the victors were the ones with the most money, the insurance companies, and the losers everyone else, the practitioners and the patients.

    The audience, us, had hope in her too. I'm sure this was by design from the writers and showrunners. We may have even celebrated a moment of female empowerment when she locked those paternalistic Dothraki douchebag rapists in the hut to burn to death. We got fooled because we only wanted to see what we wanted to see. In the end, Dany wasn't any different from her dad, Robert, Cersei, Stannis, Euron, the Night King, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  7. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    I'm not giving the TV show, or its writers/producers, credit for what's in the books.

    TV Dany could be totally brutal, sure, but I only remember her being brutal towards evil people, maybe I'm forgetting something though as I'm not totally die hard as a fan.

    "The audience, us, had hope in her too. I'm sure this was by design from the writers and showrunners." Yes, this was explicit. And I don't have any problem with Dany going apeshit in the show but taking her to a point where she's mowing down thousands of innocents is Massively out of character and getting her to that point needed to take a Lot longer for the writing to be at all reasonable.

    I'm watching GoT as it's presented, a character drama with spectacle. Characters acting within their years worth of development in a show featuring zombies and dragons trumps historical accuracy to the norms of Medieval Europe.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Exactly what Dany remembers too.
     
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  9. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    But is that unfair?

    Did TV Dany have a history of brutality towards innocents? If not, all I'm saying is that her torching of King's Landing was out of character for where her character stood at the time, no matter how historically accurate it might be for a fire proof lady to torch a city on her dragon.
     
  10. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar was: dingleberry; now: chill + interesting

    Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Do you think repeatedly nailing thousands of people to trees and leaving them to slowly suffocate to death over a period of days as they're not particularly fond of you is a normal human behavior?
     
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  11. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    I dont remember that happening in the show, but again I stand to be corrected. I'm googling 'Danaerys Crucifixions' and seeing 163 at Mereen.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    She also impetuously burnt Sam's dad and his brother (sole heir) to a crisp instead of allowing them to rot in cell for a while to reconsider bending the knee.

    Sam's dad was an ass to Sam, but they were not evil.

    Also, might not want to trade expensive audio gear for one of her dragons.
     
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  13. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Nobody is innocent 100% unless we are talking about babies and stuff.

    Dany was pretty brutal. In general, human leadership is extremely brutal. She would have been a good queen if she saw herself in the subjects she was ruling. Instead, she had a very narrow and volatile view of who her subjects were. Furthermore, anyone outside what she considered "hers" was good as dead regardless of age, gender or beliefs. When one demonises and/or diminishes a fellow human being, all sorts of nasty things are possible.

    As far as war and rules, war has not rules. The term war crimes exist only to justify revenge on the defeated. And that is the way of the world.
     
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  14. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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    Towards the end of the episode I got the feeling they had pulled the writers of the old Lost in Space TV series out of the retirement home. I was waiting for Dr. Smith to show up as a stalk of celery and The Robot yelling danger, danger, shitty ending approaching! Now jumping shark!

    Fuck it. I’m going back to listening to music. TV has wasted enough of my precious time on Earth.

    Oh, and good luck with that Star Wars gig. You are going to need it.

    Here you go.

    Bran or Dr. Smith as King? Had about the same reaction.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  15. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    My point is that whether or not the writing for the show was consistent to Medieval Europe, or War, or the books or anything else it wasn't consistent to itself.

    "Do you think repeatedly nailing thousands of people to trees and leaving them to slowly suffocate to death over a period of days as they're not particularly fond of you is a normal human behavior?"

    ^What is that referring to?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  16. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Yeah but that wasn't that long ago and it was basically the beginning of her going nuts.

    It could've worked if they had built it up over a longer span of time. The way it was done didn't work at all. The last 2 seasons sucked hard and turned a decent show into complete crap.
     
  17. GTABeancounter

    GTABeancounter Friend

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    As others have said in response, she certainly had a history of brutality with the crucifixions as a fair example.

    As for the term "innocents", one could say that Dany's madness manifested itself in her loss of judgement in this respect. It seemed to me that the tipping point for Jon was Dany holding the peasants of King's Landing accountable for not overthrowing their evil Queen. This justification for her destruction is the reason Jon stabbed her; he clearly realized what the implications could be and saw her murder as just given the alternative.
     
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  18. Ringingears

    Ringingears Honorary BFF

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  19. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    It's all good @BillOhio.

    Yes, the last season is not consistent with the full TV series, due to poor writing.
     
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  20. BillOhio

    BillOhio Friend

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    Thank You, but this is referring to 163 crucifixions of slave masters while Psalm is talking about the repeated nailing of thousands of people to trees. I'm trying to figure out what the repeated thousands nailed to trees is referring to(?)

     

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